Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Finally, a place for sport pilot instructors and/or wannabees to talk about instructing.

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comperini
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby comperini » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:26 am

WDD, you have to be selected by the FAA to be an examiner. Being a CFI is one of the prerequisites. Flight instructors can only do proficiency checks (which most probably don't fully understand how they're supposed to be done anyway).

If I plan on being the DPE, I can not be the person to sign off the applicant to see me, as the DPE. That pretty much means I can't do the required "test prep within 60 days"
- Bob
COMM, CFI, DPE, Light Sport Repairman/Maintenance
http://www.sportpilotinstructor.com

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WDD
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby WDD » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:49 am

comperini wrote:WDD, you have to be selected by the FAA to be an examiner. Being a CFI is one of the prerequisites. Flight instructors can only do proficiency checks (which most probably don't fully understand how they're supposed to be done anyway).

If I plan on being the DPE, I can not be the person to sign off the applicant to see me, as the DPE. That pretty much means I can't do the required "test prep within 60 days"


Understand that that is the way it is now. This is a hypothetical question.

I'm just asking whether or not a CFI doesn't already know enough to do the oral test and the practical check ride?

If someone is proficient enough to teach, should be proficient enough to grade a test.

Warmi
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby Warmi » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:54 am

Way too complicated and byzantine for no real benefit. If someone wants to be a CFI they should have all required knowledge to also be an examiner. The only stipulation should be that they cannot do check-rides for students they worked with.
Why over complicate things so much - if the above model works for academia , it should work for flight training as well.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

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drseti
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby drseti » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:55 am

WDD wrote:Would not any flight instructor know enough to do a check ride and oral test?


Not without a great deal of additional training. Without getting into the details, a DPE's duties and responsibilities extend far beyond merely performing oral and practical tests (hence the online course and the one-week live course). Bob C., since you're a DPE, would you care to comment about those additional duties?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby drseti » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:02 pm

WDD wrote:I'm just asking whether or not a CFI doesn't already know enough to do the oral test and the practical check ride?


Not within my experience. Not to be too hard on practitoners of my chosen trade, but there are quite a few active CFIs out there who don't know the FARs well enough to properly prepare a student for the checkride. I know this because I get calls and emails all the time from CFIs asking me how to do a logbook endorsement, IACRA form, category/class add-on, or checkride prep.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

comperini
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby comperini » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:26 pm

drseti wrote:
WDD wrote:Would not any flight instructor know enough to do a check ride and oral test?


Not without a great deal of additional training. Without getting into the details, a DPE's duties and responsibilities extend far beyond merely performing oral and practical tests (hence the online course and the one-week live course). Bob C., since you're a DPE, would you care to comment about those additional duties?


People, please remember that the "D" in DPE (and DAR for that matter), stands for "designated". You essentially become an uncompensated employee or representative if you will, granted powers by the FAA to issue certificates. That's a big deal! The FAA has every right to demand the highest quality out of someone they trust enough, to do work for them.

No, not all CFI's know how to test. Yes, they are the best candidates to become DPEs, but no, the FAA should not ever just say "CFIs can administer tests". More than once, I've had to fail an applicant, because that applicant's CFI didn't teach the correct stuff. This can happen with "new" CFIs, but often it happens with subpart H CFIs who don't understand that not all "private pilot" privileges apply to sport pilot. More than once, I've had applicants think they can fly in 1 mile visibility, when they can't.

Even after you become a DPE, the FAA keeps a short leash on you. The FAA has fired many DPEs over the years, for doing things wrong. So no, you can't just blindly give people power like that, without control.

After becoming a DPE, you'll still need to take online courses, pass a "check ride" with your POI, to make sure you still know what to do. We also have to notify the FAA before we give each practical, so that the FAA has the opportunity to send out an inspector to observe our orals. Since we're doing the flying part in LSAs, at least the inspector can't be in the plane during the flying portion. The FAA can fire us for any reason, or no reason at all. Common reasons for being terminated, include doing something wrong/illegal, too many paperwork errors in a year (which is why we all prefer IACRA), not doing enough practical exams (if you're not active, they don't want you on their rolls), being too easy, being too hard, etc. We also have to re-apply every two years, to remain as a DPE.

So, NO, CFI's should never just blindly be given those kinds of powers. Yes, the CFI is the best candidate. You're doing a very important job for the FAA, so it's only right that they control who's allowed to do it.
Last edited by comperini on Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Bob

COMM, CFI, DPE, Light Sport Repairman/Maintenance

http://www.sportpilotinstructor.com

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drseti
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby drseti » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:28 pm

Thanks for elaborating, Bob.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

comperini
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby comperini » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:38 pm

drseti wrote:Not without a great deal of additional training. Without getting into the details, a DPE's duties and responsibilities extend far beyond merely performing oral and practical tests (hence the online course and the one-week live course).


Up until recently (just a few years), FSDOs were not allowed to designated sport pilot examiners. Only AFS-610 could. Well now, FSDOs can, too. Those people were pencil whipped. They didn't have to go through the seminar specific to sport pilot. In some cases, that has caused problems. Here in my area, I've heard that one of the "FSDO DPEs" actually tested sport pilot applicants using the private pilot PTS. I've also heard rumor of a FSDO DPE doing "group oral exams", which is a BIG no-no. No wonder the FAA wants to keep DPEs on a short leash.
- Bob

COMM, CFI, DPE, Light Sport Repairman/Maintenance

http://www.sportpilotinstructor.com

chicagorandy
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby chicagorandy » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:03 pm

Sounds to this old man like flying cars may some day actually be built...... but nobody is gonna be able to fly 'em?

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drseti
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby drseti » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:33 pm

chicagorandy wrote:Sounds to this old man like flying cars may some day actually be built...... but nobody is gonna be able to fly 'em?


No, my take is that a Sport Pilot license will be required. (More business for me.)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

3Dreaming
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby 3Dreaming » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:14 pm

Not all CFI's are created equal. While some could do an objective and fair checkride, I would venture to say they are in the minority. I personally know of CFI's who would have no business doing a checkride. In the past I knew of a current CFI who had not flown for over 10 years. The local DPE has told me that there is an instructor that sends him applicants who has never had one pass on the first try. If he cant even prepare someone for a checkride, how could he perform a test?

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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby Warmi » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:48 pm

3Dreaming wrote:Not all CFI's are created equal. While some could do an objective and fair checkride, I would venture to say they are in the minority. I personally know of CFI's who would have no business doing a checkride. In the past I knew of a current CFI who had not flown for over 10 years. The local DPE has told me that there is an instructor that sends him applicants who has never had one pass on the first try. If he cant even prepare someone for a checkride, how could he perform a test?


Preparing somebody for a check-ride is much harder than doing the actual check-ride - testing is a fairly mechanical tasks with well defined and known variables while teaching takes skills and, frankly, quite a bit of talent.

The bottom line is that the current system is broken if it takes months to even get a check-ride scheduled so something needs to be done.
Flying Sting S4 ( N184WA ) out of Illinois

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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby drseti » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:17 pm

drseti wrote:Unless something unforseen occurs, you can expect Chapter 8 around April first -- no foolin'!


Well, in fact something unforseen has occurred - but it probably won't impact present plans. I just got an email from OKC, informing me that they are scheduling an earlier special class for those of us impacted by the government shutdown. I was offered enrollment for the last week in February (which would have been very convenient). However, since I'm already enrolled for the course offered the last week of March, and have my airline and hotel reservations in place, I'm hesitant to upset the apple cart.

So, I expect to have my DPE training completed by April first, as previously reported.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

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WDD
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby WDD » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:28 pm

Very informative - thanks!

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Half Fast
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Re: Sport Pilot DPE shortage

Postby Half Fast » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:53 pm

drseti wrote: However, since I'm already enrolled for the course offered the last week of March, and have my airline and hotel reservations in place, I'm hesitant to upset the apple cart.



Paul, my experience in dealing with the Government has convinced me that the apple cart almost certainly will be upset one way or another anyhow, so sometimes you might as well tip it over yourself at a time of your own choosing. :mrgreen:
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