Full Flaps

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Jim Hardin
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Full Flaps

Postby Jim Hardin » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:32 pm

I use and teach Full Flaps for all landings. I have never seen any situation where I thought it would be better at reduced settings.
I also teach No Flaps for training purposes.

Your thoughts?

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FastEddieB
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Re: Full Flaps

Postby FastEddieB » Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:17 pm

I was taught, and went on to teach, a mantra of maximum flaps as consistent with conditions.

The largest factor if a landing accident occurs is the energy carried into the accident. Therefor the goal should be landing as slowly as possible, consistent with conditions. Hence with full flaps and the slowest possible touchdown.

There are some who avoid full flaps because they seem more difficult. Let me suggest that's only because they either never developed the skill to do full flap landings consistently, or once had and then lost that skill. For pilots who do them all the time, there's nothing at all "tricky" about them.

Of course, no flap landings should be taught, but as an abnormal condition. A pilot needs to be comfortable with them if mechanical failure mandates a no flap landing.

Let me be clear: this does not apply to ALL aircraft or to ALL conditions. Gusty crosswinds, for instance, may call for a bit less. But for most GA aircraft under most conditions, landing with less than full flaps just increases the damage and injury level if and when something does go wrong.

In my opinion, of course!
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
FastEddieB@mac.com

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MrMorden
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Re: Full Flaps

Postby MrMorden » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:17 am

Jim Hardin wrote:I use and teach Full Flaps for all landings. I have never seen any situation where I thought it would be better at reduced settings.
I also teach No Flaps for training purposes.

Your thoughts?


Depends on the airplane. "full flaps" on my CTSW is 40°, and because it has drooping ailerons with increasing flaps (flaperons), the airplane loses roll authority and becomes quite a handful in gusty conditions at that setting. Enough so that so that the newer airplanes only have 30° max, which is what I usually use in calm conditions.

I tend to agree that more flaps and slower landings are better, but at winds over 10 knots it seems the better bet for my airplane is to use half flaps, 15°. Again, it just depends on the design. In the case of the CTSW, the difference in touchdown speed between the two flap settings is only 2-3 knots, but you can land a lot shorter at 30° if that is needed for a short field.
Andy Walker
Athens, GA
Sport Pilot ASEL, LSRI
2007 Flight Design CTSW E-LSA

3Dreaming
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Re: Full Flaps

Postby 3Dreaming » Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:46 am

Eddie and Jim,

I was wondering how much experience you guys have with airplanes that have flaperons?

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FastEddieB
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Re: Full Flaps

Postby FastEddieB » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:27 pm

3Dreaming wrote:Eddie and Jim,

I was wondering how much experience you guys have with airplanes that have flaperons?


I have virtually none.

That's why I tried to make my recommendations as general as possible, with the caveat that they might not apply to all aircraft.

I would hope that the interconnection between the flaps and the ailerons, as in the CT line, I believe, would be designed so as to preclude major problems with full flaps and moderate crosswinds. Or that if there were an issue, that a placard or POH "Caution" would give guidelines as to the use of flaps in a crosswind.

As an aside, I don't even know what kind of aircraft the OP teaches in, so my response had to be general in nature.
Fast Eddie B.

Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA

FastEddieB@mac.com

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CharlieTango
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Re: Full Flaps

Postby CharlieTango » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:58 pm

My first plane and my current plane both had/have flaperons. I have always used full or 30 degree flaps for landings. I get that roll authority diminishes with higher flaperon settings but that is true with higher flap settings as well. Nothing new because we have flaperons.

It's not a big deal because we as pilots don't move the stick into the wind just a small amount and fail to counter the drift or fail to keep the low wing down. Like any other input when our stick's become sluggish we move them far enough to get the desired result.

More flaps = less speed = less roll authority = more stick travel required.

Here's why this is smarter than landing fast: If your roll authority is inadequate when attempting to land at minimum speed you can simply fly away and land on a different runway. If instead you land fast but in the same conditions, with more roll authority and more ease you will more likely be able to land but still run out of needed authority as speed decays when you are on the ground and even more vulnerable. Result is the mishap is now more likely.

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Jim Hardin
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Re: Full Flaps

Postby Jim Hardin » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:31 am

3Dreaming wrote:Eddie and Jim,

I was wondering how much experience you guys have with airplanes that have flaperons?


Little with flaperons but I did a tailwheel endorsement in a Kit Fox with winds of 20 to 30 knots on some days. I didn't notice any degradation of the ailerons but I was talking fast and not doing the flying :D (3 point landings but that is another discussion)

As I started out, this is a discussion and all points of view are welcome. No real 'right answer' to this.


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