Question for the CFIs

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Flocker
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Question for the CFIs

Postby Flocker » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:10 pm

Here's the scenario from a flight I had last weekend:

I'm approaching a towered airport with parallel runways.
We're cleared to land on the right side.
Plane #2 is cleared to land on the left side.
I'm on a 1/2 mile final to the right side at 400 feet AGL and suddenly I see a plane flying under me and flaring over the numbers on the right side.
I inform the tower of the situation and tell them I am going around.
Afterwards, they instruct pilot #2 to call the tower. He admits to the mistake and apologizes.

My question is this: If we had collided, who is at fault?

Is he the "pilot in error due to not following a clearance" or am I the "pilot in error for not maintaining visual separation".

I was in a high-wing Cessna, he was in a low wing Piper.

Let the debate begin...

FlyingForFun
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby FlyingForFun » Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:26 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jim Stewart
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby Jim Stewart » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:32 am

You can't maintain visual separation if you can't see him. He, on the other hand, broke at least two regulations. Landing without clearance and cutting in front of you on final approace.
PP-ASEL, Flight Design CTSW owner.

FlyingForFun
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby FlyingForFun » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:04 am

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:52 am

Flocker wrote: am I the "pilot in error for not maintaining visual separation"


Not unless you had reported the traffic in sight, and the tower had told you to maintain visual separation.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
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drseti
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:58 am

FlyingForFun wrote:A jury of your peers would decide

<pedantic>
The term "jury of your peers" comes from English common law. In US law, it's "fair and impartial jury".
</pedantic>
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:01 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:You can't maintain visual separation if you can't see him. He, on the other hand, broke at least two regulations. Landing without clearance and cutting in front of you on final approace.


Not sure about that, Jim. Sounds as though both planes received landing clearance, albeit on different runways. So, the only reg the other plane broke was landing on the wrong runway. OTOH, right of way goes to the plane at lower altitude. Since the traffic was below Flocker, he was right to go around.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby FlyingForFun » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:38 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

3Dreaming
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:45 pm

I would much rather be alive than right, especially dead right.

Flocker
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby Flocker » Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:12 pm

drseti wrote:
Flocker wrote: am I the "pilot in error for not maintaining visual separation"


Not unless you had reported the traffic in sight, and the tower had told you to maintain visual separation.


I never reported "traffic in sight" nor was I told to maintain visual separation. I never saw the guy - although I knew he was cleared for the left side.

I called the tower afterwards and they placed the blame squarely on the pilot that didn't follow their clearance. I asked the tower if they can tell from their vantage point if a plane is lined up on the correct runway and I was told "not always." In fact my CFI told me that a plane landed on a taxiway once.

I will request traffic updates in the future...

FlyingForFun
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby FlyingForFun » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:06 pm

Delete
Last edited by FlyingForFun on Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FastEddieB
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby FastEddieB » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:56 pm

3Dreaming wrote:I would much rather be alive than right, especially dead right.


Here lies the body of Michael O'Day
Who died defending his right of way.
He was right, dead right, as he sailed along,
But he's just as dead as if he'd been wrong.
Fast Eddie B.
Sky Arrow 600 E-LSA • N467SA
FastEddieB@mac.com

Jack Tyler
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby Jack Tyler » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:46 am

Some of the confusion in this discussion comes from mixing civil liability with FAR enforcement.
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org

Flocker
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby Flocker » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:33 am

Drseti - someone has suggested that I call the local FSDO office for a final ruling on this. Is that a good idea?

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drseti
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Re: Question for the CFIs

Postby drseti » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:29 am

I would be more inclined to ask AOPA Pilot Services. Different FSDO often have different opinions.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying


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