Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Finally, a place for sport pilot instructors and/or wannabees to talk about instructing.

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Torque
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Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby Torque » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:12 am

If I am not wrong, are there not different classes of the Sport Pilot Certificate?

Meaning you can have just a single seat indorsement. Or you can have a Sport Pilot Certificate with dual seat indorsement.

So I see one flies the Sport Pilot Certificate under different classes of certificates.

How about the man whom flies the ultralight that has been registered as an LSA so now this man needs a certificate. Does this man have to go out and do training like everyone else. Or is the training different for this type of certificate?

It seems to me someone that will never fly more then a few miles from thier own home field would not have to do the same training as someone whom is looking to travel as a Sport Pilot.

Am I correct?

I ask this because I was speaking with a man whom owns a registered ultralight and he wants to get his certificate. He was really upset because he said the training is above his style of flying.

I told him I thought there was different classes of the Sport Pilot Program.

Maybe someone could clear this up for us.

Thanks

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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby drseti » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:24 am

Torque wrote:If I am not wrong, are there not different classes of the Sport Pilot Certificate?


Yes, but in the LSA category, those classes are airplane, seaplane, weight shift control, gyroplane, glider, lighter-than-air, and powered parachute. Nothing there about single vs dual seats being different classes.

There are endorsements for greater than 87 knots cruise, less than 87 knots cruise, and tailwheel, plus airspace endorsements for Class D, C, and B. Again, nothing about number of seats.

How about the man whom flies the ultralight that has been registered as an LSA so now this man needs a certificate. Does this man have to go out and do training like everyone else. Or is the training different for this type of certificate?


Used to be allowances for ultralight experience, when the SP rating was first introduced, but that window of opportunity closed about four years ago.

I ask this because I was speaking with a man whom owns a registered ultralight and he wants to get his certificate. He was really upset because he said the training is above his style of flying.


Such a person can still fly unlicensed ultralights under Part 103. (254 pounds max empty weight, 5 gallons max fuel, etc.) But when you get a license, the CFI and DPE must ensure you meet all the PTS standards, regardless of your "style of flying".

The real question is, does this pilot want to learn skills that are going to save his life some, day, or does he only want to be free to kill himself? Part 103 was designed for the latter.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
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Torque
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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby Torque » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:40 pm

My buddy has been flying his ultralight for over 20 years. I do not see how training is going to make him any safer. Now if he moves up to faster plane where he is traveling I see. But to tell me for him to fly the patch or within a few miles of his house without training is puttng anyone in danger is hog wash.

He happened to get a new ultralight almost just like his last but n numbered. Now he needs to get himself legal, but telling me for him to fly it now is unsafe because he lacks training and or is putting others at risk is hog wash. I bet he has 3000 hrs flying these ultralights.

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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby Torque » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:52 pm

You make it sound like if you fly Par 103 you are a dead person. I believe a lot of people would have to disagree with that.

You also make it sound like if a person goes through training they will never crash. I believe the NTSB is full of crashes that are Pilot error. Are not over 80% pilot error. I believe 99.9% held a Certificate of some sort.

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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby drseti » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:36 pm

Torque wrote:My buddy has been flying his ultralight for over 20 years. I do not see how training is going to make him any safer.


Torque, the issue is that FAA does not issue licenses that are exclusive to one aircraft, or one type of flying. If you get a Sport Pilot rating in an airplane, you are empowered to fly any LSA airplane, in any airspace except Classes A through D. There's no way to grant those privileges without the CFI training to, and the DPE examining to, the entire PTS.

If your buddy is indeed safe flying an ultralight (and I'm not questioning this), then he should get an unregistered one, not one with an N number, and fly under Part 103 constraints. But the minute he goes for a SP certificate, the DPE is saying he's safe to fly a Tecnam, or Evektor, or CT. And those are different animals from what he flies.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby drseti » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:50 pm

Torque wrote:You make it sound like if you fly Par 103 you are a dead person.


No, that's not what I'm saying, but why do you suppose the FAA developed the Sport Pilot rating? It's because the Part 103 accident rate was far higher than under Part 91. The whole objective of SP, as far as FAA was concerned, was to bring ultralight pilots under their protective umbrella, requiring training and imposing standards, so as to bring that accident rate down.

I believe the NTSB is full of crashes that are Pilot error. Are not over 80% pilot error. I believe 99.9% held a Certificate of some sort.


This is entirely true, and a strong argument for us needing to improve instruction (a topic for another thread).

Specific to LSAs, I've seen far too many accident reports (often fatal) that involve a high-time, highly experienced pilot, Private or above, getting into an LSA and losing control within the first five hours. Usually, these pilots feel (correctly) that their ASEL rating makes them legal to fly these planes without any additional ratings or training. The problem is, they (incorrectly) feel these simple little planes will be easier to fly than the heavier, faster, more complex aircraft they usually fly. Read the NTSB reports - higher ratings, and experience in a different type of aircraft, do not necessarily improve safety. This is why I am such a strong advocate of transition training whenever one changes to a different aircraft (and get it myself whenever in that situation). But, that's also a topic for another thread.

Bottom line: saying "I don't see why I have to learn that" is indicative of the very anti-authority attitude that plays very heavily in the accident statistics.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

Torque
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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby Torque » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:20 pm

I thought the SP Certificate came in different flavors, meaning one could get a Singe seat SP certificate, or you could get a dual seat certificate. Then you can also get different indorsements on that certificate to even further your flying.

This is what I was trying to explain to this man. He said I was wrong and SP is one ticket.

He says he has no interests in fly dual seat, he just wants to fly single seat.

The problem with just staying the way he is, even the little plane he flies, even though it looks the part of an ultralight, it really is not. It comes in at around 280 lbs. He worries about getting checked and wants to be legal. I must say I do not blame him.

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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby drseti » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:37 pm

Torque wrote:, even though it looks the part of an ultralight, it really is not. It comes in at around 280 lbs.


The so-called Fat Ultralights are precisely why the FSS created the LSA category! Your friend is correct, there is no special single-seat rating. I had a student in exactly the same situation - owned an N-numbered CGS Hawk, had flown it for years as a fat ultralight, missed his window of opportunity, and had to go back to school to earn the Sport Pilot rating, so he could keep flying his plane. We researched the FARs quite thoroughly, and determined that, yes, he had to go through the whole training process. He did, did very well in his training, and has been flying now for almost 3 years as a Sport Pilot.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

artp
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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby artp » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:41 pm

drseti wrote:Torque, the issue is that FAA does not issue licenses that are exclusive to one aircraft, or one type of flying. If you get a Sport Pilot rating in an airplane, you are empowered to fly any LSA airplane, in any airspace except Classes A through D. There's no way to grant those privileges without the CFI training to, and the DPE examining to, the entire PTS.


Does that mean as a private pilot I can fly any LSA including gyroplanes?

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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby drseti » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:56 pm

artp wrote: Does that mean as a private pilot I can fly any LSA including gyroplanes?


As a PPL holder (I assume your ticket says ASEL), you can exercise SP privileges in an additional class (such as gyroplane, glider, etc.) if you go through the same endorsement process an SP would have to go through. That means two CFIs, one to give you instruction, and another to give you what amounts to a flight review in it. Then the two instructors sign and submit an 8710-11, and you're good to go (exercising SP privileges only).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

Torque
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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby Torque » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:10 pm

No single seat option as a SP. I believe this is not correct. I am reading in my PTS standards book for Sport Pilot and it shows an option for single seat.

You have to have two CFI's. If you find CFI that is an Examiner can he not do bot the instructions and checkride?

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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby drseti » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:20 pm

Torque wrote:No single seat option as a SP. I believe this is not correct. I am reading in my PTS standards book for Sport Pilot and it shows an option for single seat.


Check the date on your PTS, because this is an area that was changed in recent years. For example, there used to be a procedure for giving biennial flight reviews to a student in a single seat aircraft. The instructor stood on the ground with a handheld teansceiver, talked to the student, issued insteuctions, and observed performance. The FAR for flight reviews was changed to specifically require one hour (minimum) of ground instruction, and one hour (min) of flight instruction. Another FAR requires that, to be used for flight instruction, the aircraft must be equipped with full dual controls. This is of course not possible in a single seater, so to comply with both regs, a flight review can no longer be done in a one sear aircraft. By extension, same goes for checkrides. So, to get licensed, you need to fly dual. Current rules thus negated the old policies. (The reason flight instructor ratings must be renewed by taking a class every two years is to keep us all up to date with these kinds of changes.)

You have to have two CFI's. If you find CFI that is an Examiner can he not do bot the instructions and checkride?


Here the current FARs are very deliberate, and clear. For one person to recommend a student for a checkride, and also administer it, would be a conflict of interest.

In the case of an initial rating, a CFI who is also a DPE can give instruction, but if he or she is going to give the checkride, cannot sign the student off for that checkride. In practice, this means the DPE can give all the instruction except for the required two hours of dual in preparation for the practical. Those two hours of dual are given by somebody else, who then signs the 8710-11 recommending the student for a checkride. The checkride can only then be given by the original instructor.

Similarly, when doing additional aircraft class endorsements, the same instructor cannot do both the instruction and the required proficiency check. It absolutely takes two separate instructors, and two different signatures on the 8710 or on IACRA. Otherwise, it is considered a conflict of interest.

Finally, a CFI cannot endorse himself or herself for any rating or privilege. The only exception allowed is that a CFI can administer his or her own required annual TSA security training, and is then allowed to endorse his or her own logbook. (I'm quite certain of this, since as a TSA approved Alien Flight Training provider, I get audited by TSA annually.)

EDIT: Note that for adding an aircraft class, the second instructor administering the proficiency check can be any CFI rated in that class. He or she need not be a Designated Pilot Examiner.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

3Dreaming
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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:37 pm

Paul, I am going to have to side with Tony on the checkride being OK in a single place aircraft. Look to CFR 61.45 (f) for this. You can also do a proficiency check in a single place, but the second instructor must be a DPE. If you do it in a single place airplane you are restricted to no carriage of passengers and single place aircraft only. I do agree that the flight review needs to be done in a two place aircraft.

Tony, to get to the point of the checkride you must do the 15 hours of dual instruction in a 2 place aircraft. The solo time can be done in the single place if the instructor will sign off on that. His previous ultrlight flight time could have been used towards his ratings, but the provision for that expired a little over a year ago. Now all that the previous flight time can be used for is experience, and that counts for something even if it doesn't count towards the rating.

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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby drseti » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:56 pm

Thanks for the correction, Tom. Yes, I reread that Section, and concur.

The sticking point is "if the examiner agrees." Good luck finding one that does! :(
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

3Dreaming
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Re: Different Classes of Sport Pilot

Postby 3Dreaming » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:02 pm

drseti wrote:Thanks for the correction, Tom. Yes, I reread that Section, and concur.

The sticking point is "if the examiner agrees." Good luck finding one that does! :(


The examiner I use originally said he wouldn't do it. I ask because early on I had a single place ultralight who want to do it. Later he told me he had kind of changed his mind. He said if someone is wanting to play by the rules so they can fly thier heavy single place ultralight, I should help them do it.


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