Sport Only Instructors

Finally, a place for sport pilot instructors and/or wannabees to talk about instructing.

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drseti
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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 05, 2013 11:39 am

And this is a prime example of why I hate trying to interpret FARs. The various sections are mutually contradictory. They are written by attorneys, in a language that only attorneys understand (possibly in an effort to provide full employment for law school graduates?)

Now, at first glance, 61,39(4) seems tautological: one must have a medical certificate to take a checkride, if a medical certificate is required. On closer reading, it seems to say that, if a medical certificate is required to take a checkride, it need only be a third class.

But that begs the question: when is a medical certificate required? Clearly, it is in order to be PIC in a certified airplane. For the Commercial, at least part of the checkride must be taken in a complex aircraft, which precludes taking it in an LSA. So, yes, a medical would be required.

But, is it? Only if the applicant is PIC. But, where in the FARs does it say the applicant has to be PIC on a checkride? I haven't found this requirement. So, I propose that, if the DPE is willing to be PIC, one can get a Commercial (or instrument rating, or ATP, or whatever) without ever having received a medical certificate.

True, one must have a medical to exercise some of the privileges of those ratings. But a medical is required only when a medical is required. And I don't see a requirement when you're not PIC!

So, what am I missing here?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
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VL Roberts
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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby VL Roberts » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:32 pm

There also appears to be another quirk in the regulation. The way I read it, a Subpart H CFI would need a third class medical when giving instruction and acting as PIC, LSA or not. However a CFI with a Sport rating ( Subpart K), would only need a drivers license.

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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:40 pm

I seem to recall another part of the FARs that says a Subpart H CFI can exercise Subpart K privileges. That would seem to include instructing as PIC in an LSA, without a medical.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
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VL Roberts
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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby VL Roberts » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:57 pm

61.429 is the relevant section. To exercise the privileges of a Flight Instructor with a Sport rating, a Subpart H instructor would only need a drivers license. But a Subpart H instructor without a medical would be restricted to Sport instructor privileges only, or those privileges of a Subpart H that don't require a medical. But other Subpart H privileges, such as instructing for Private, would require a medical even if done in an LSA. At least that is my interpretation.

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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:12 pm

My interpretation is a little different. Medicals are required of CFIs in order to be PIC, or a required crew member. That is why a CFI with no medical can still give Flight Reviews, even in non-LSAs (as long as the customer is PIC). So, as long as the student is PIC (c.f., a rated Sport Pilot in an LSA), then the Subpart H CFI is not a required crewmember, and can then instruct the Sport Pilot toward the Private, even without a medical.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

VL Roberts
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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby VL Roberts » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:26 pm

As far as flight instructing a student pilot goes, whether an instructor needs a medical or not depends on what section , H or K privileges are being exercised. If an instructor is instructing a Private Pilot student, then the regulation requires a medical for that privilege, even in an LSA.

Again, just my opinion, but I think any Private Pilot student that logs instruction received from an instructor with no medical runs the risk of having their certificate invalidated.

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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby VL Roberts » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:52 pm

Visit www.sportpilot.org, then "ask the expert" , then " flight instructor" , then about the 45 th question down . There is a question from a CFI without a medical. The issue we are discussing is answered by the EAA expert.

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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby VL Roberts » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:02 pm

drseti wrote:My interpretation is a little different. Medicals are required of CFIs in order to be PIC, or a required crew member. That is why a CFI with no medical can still give Flight Reviews, even in non-LSAs (as long as the customer is PIC). So, as long as the student is PIC (c.f., a rated Sport Pilot in an LSA), then the Subpart H CFI is not a required crewmember, and can then instruct the Sport Pilot toward the Private, even without a medical.


What if the Private Pilot student does not have a Sport Pilot rating, could a FI without a medical instruct the student for Private in an LSA?

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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:23 pm

I would be inclined to say no, because it's very clear that, in such a case, the CFI would also be PIC. My analogy about doing flight reviews in non-LSA, with no medical, was valid only when the pilot in question is PIC. We do that all the time. But, if the pilot's flight review has already expired, the CFI would then need a medical, as he or she would have to act as PIC. I think a similar situation exists when I instruct a Sport Pilot who is PIC. My Subpart H privileges can then be exercised with no medical, because I'm not a required crewmember.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

VL Roberts
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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby VL Roberts » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:33 pm

drseti wrote:I would be inclined to say no, because it's very clear that, in such a case, the CFI would also be PIC. My analogy about doing flight reviews in non-LSA, with no medical, was valid only when the pilot in question is PIC. We do that all the time. But, if the pilot's flight review has already expired, the CFI would then need a medical, as he or she would have to act as PIC. I think a similar situation exists when I instruct a Sport Pilot who is PIC. My Subpart H privileges can then be exercised with no medical, because I'm not a required crewmember.


Let's expand that logic one step further. A FI without a medical can not train a student private pilot (with no Sport rating) because the regulation requires the FI to be PIC and therefor he needs a medical, even if training is conducted in an LSA.

If a FI without a medical is instructing a Sport Pilot student and in the middle of training the student declares the he/she now wants to pursue a Private Pilot rating, does the instruction provided by the FI without a medical count towards the PPL training requirements?

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Re: Sport Only Instructors

Postby drseti » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:08 pm

As the rules currently stand, the hours of dual a student pilot receives, in order to count toward the Private, must indeed have been provided by a Subpart H CFI. If the hours were in an LSA, and the Subpart H instructor does not have a current medical, the flight is still legal. But whether those hours can be used to satisfy the required hours of dual is a gray area.

On the one hand, there's nothing on my Subpart H CFI certificate that says it's only valid when accompanied by a current medical certificate (it does say it must be accompanied by my Commercial Pilot certificate, but that makes no mention of requiring a medical certificate, either).

OTOH, somewhere in the FARs it does say that a Subpart H CFI can exercise Subpart H privileges without a medical.

On the third hand, that same rule does not explicitly say that the Subpart H CFI privileges are void without a medical, so this begs a test case before the FAA.

On the fourth hand (anybody have two pianos?) when I sign your logbook indicating dual instruction given, I am required to sign my name, flight instructor certificate number, and the initials CFI. Nowhere does that signoff indicate whether or not I have a valid medical. Nor am I required to so indicate. So, when the student's logbook is scrutinized by the DPE, he or she has no way of knowing which hours of dual should, or shouldn't, be counted.

All of which may soon become moot. There is a proposal currently before the FAA to allow some Subpart K instruction to count toward the Private rating. See this post for details: http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1892
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US


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