POH in aircraft

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zdc

POH in aircraft

Postby zdc » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:00 pm

Does anyone know if the POH must be on board during flight for a Sport Plane?

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Postby drseti » Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:35 pm

Yes, for all aircraft. See FAR 91.9(b)(1) and (2).
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dstclair
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Postby dstclair » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:01 pm

Actually, the answer is no. Now then the Aircraft Operating Instructions (AOI) are required for an LSA :) POH is for certified aircraft. Of course, they are fundamentally the same thing.....
dave

zdc

Postby zdc » Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:10 pm

The reason I asked is because a C162 has a book with checklist in it. On the pre flight checklist is sates Garmin300 manual , as desired, POH as desired, implying that the POH doesn't need to be on board. The checklist book is an extensive book with emergency procedures etc.

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bitten192
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Postby bitten192 » Sun Sep 18, 2011 11:45 pm

Some LSAs come with POH's. I think it is wise to not argue Semantics with the FAA. If you have a ramp check it would be wise to have the POH/AOI in the aircraft.

Ernie

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Postby drseti » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:06 am

zdc wrote:POH as desired, implying that the POH doesn't need to be on board.


I think what they mean is that you can carry the POH (or AOI) if you desire to avoid violating the FAR! :wink:
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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Postby drseti » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:09 am

bitten192 wrote:Some LSAs come with POH's. I think it is wise to not argue Semantics with the FAA.


You're right, Ernie, especially since the FAA already anticipated that semantic quibble! FAR 91.9 says (and I'm paraphrasing here) that if the plane is required to have a POH, you're required to carry it. For planes that don't have a POH, you're required to carry the equivalent information (and that's clearly satisfied by an AOI).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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AvSport LLC, KLHV
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zdc

Postby zdc » Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:08 pm

Here is what I found in Cessnas' customer care book for the C162: "The POH and Pilots Checklist contain material which constitutes the Approved Operating Intructions for your aircraft. Cessna reccomends the POH be kept aboard the aircraft at all times, however the aircraft can be operated with the Pilots Checklist.

zdc

Postby zdc » Mon Sep 19, 2011 5:31 pm

FAR 91.9 doesn't use the words "Pilot Operating Handbook or Aircraft Operating Instructions." It says".....unless there is available in the aircraft a current, approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual...".

So I would say the Pilots Checklist for the C162 has been deemed the approved flight manual, since Cessna has stated that the pilots checklist [not a copy] must be aboard the aircraft but not the POH.

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Postby drseti » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:06 pm

zdc wrote:I would say the Pilots Checklist for the C162 has been deemed the approved flight manual,


So, when you get ramp-checked and the FAA inspector asks to see the POH, you reply, "Cessna says I don't need to carry it." I wonder how well that will go over...

If it were me, I'd just carry the blasted POH.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
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zdc

Postby zdc » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:12 pm

drseti wrote:
zdc wrote:I would say the Pilots Checklist for the C162 has been deemed the approved flight manual,


So, when you get ramp-checked and the FAA inspector asks to see the POH, you reply, "Cessna says I don't need to carry it." I wonder how well that will go over...

If it were me, I'd just carry the blasted POH.


Well, I'm not you. The reg says an "approved flight manual" not a book labled POH. If Cessna says the pilots checklist book is what you will need to comply with FAA requlations, that the pilots checklist constitutes the aircraft's operating instructions, that is what I will have on board.

Since you are the moderator and maybe the owner of this web site, please delete my registration from this site along with all my postings.

PS I think that disclaimer you have for all your postings is a good idea.

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Postby drseti » Wed Sep 21, 2011 9:28 am

zdc wrote:If Cessna says the pilots checklist book is what you will need to comply with FAA requlations, that the pilots checklist constitutes the aircraft's operating instructions, that is what I will have on board.


That would clearly satisfy the regs, is your prerogative, and would be defensible -- but I'd just prefer not to have to explain myself to an FAA examiner when the other book is so easy to carry (and won't put me outside of the wt/bal envelope). My personal preference is to err on the side of caution.

Since you are the moderator and maybe the owner of this web site, please delete my registration from this site along with all my postings.


To clarify: Gerald is still the site owner. He asked me to moderate the forums, and I gladly agreed. That gives me the power to delete inappropriate posts, and I've done so on occasion (usually links to porn sites, and ads for erectile dysfunction meds). Nothing in your posts has ever been inappropriate, ZDC, so I've had no reason to delete any of them.

I suppose it's possible to delete a user, but I've never done so, and hesitate to (seems pretty heavy-handed to me). But, since you asked, I'll pass your request on to Gerald. As for ferreting out all 249 of your posts and deleting them individually, that's a little above my pay grade.

On a personal note: I'd hate to lose you from the forum. You've made some good comments, from which the others and I have continued to learn. And that's what this forum is all about.

PS I think that disclaimer you have for all your postings is a good idea.


Thanks. Actually, that's no different from what everybody does on these lists -- we express our opinions, and then learn from each other. Thanks for your contributions over the years.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
fly@AvSport.org
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US

bryancobb
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OAR

Postby bryancobb » Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:56 am

I got in on this one late so I hope I'm not repeating!'

IN ORDER FOR ANY AIRCRAFT BESIDES A PART 103 ULTRALIGHT, CERTIFICATED OR EXPERIMENTAL, HEAVY JET OR LSA, TO LEAVE THE GROUND... YOU MUST HAVE IN THE AIRCRAFT O.A.R. AS MOST OF US LEARNED WHEN WE TOOK THE FAA WRITTEN.

..............O = Operating limits
Always published in the POH
Can Be colored arcs on instruments
Can be placards in the cockpit etc
Weight and Balance chapter of POH is part of "O"
.............A = Airworthiness Certificate
.............R = Registration Certificate

Many items that fall under the "O" of required items, only exist in the POH.
Bryan Cobb
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Big A300-XX

Postby bryancobb » Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:05 am

The Approved Flight Manual for an Airbus A300XX is big. The FAA calls it an APPROVED FLIGHT MANUAL because PILOT'S OPERATING HANDBOOK would not be an appropriate term.

A POH and an APPROVED FLIGHT MANUAL are one and the same when it comes to the requirement of carrying the "OPERATING LIMITATIONS" with you when you fly.

Any combination of books, papers, checklists, placards, W&B sheets, etc., that collectively constitute "comprehensive operating limitations," meets the requirements for flight, in the SPIRIT of the reg.
Bryan Cobb

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Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter

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Postby Helen » Sat Sep 24, 2011 7:27 am

Required Documents on an SLSA:

1. Air worthiness certificate
2. Registration
3. Weight and balance
4. Flight Manual/POH (ASTM keeps changing what they call this thing. Technically it is more of a flight manual than a POH.)
5. Flight Training Supplement
6. Operating Limitations (signed by the DAR)

Helen
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