Class D/C/B endorsement question

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theskunk
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Class D/C/B endorsement question

Postby theskunk » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:03 am

Hi Guys,

I've got some plans coming up (assuming i pass my checkride) to be flying into some class D/C airports, but i've got a question that has come up with my instructor (as well as how to handle it)...

First off, to the letter, what type of instruction do I need -- do I need sign off for 1 of each? one class b to cover all? or a sign off for each airport i intend to visit?

I fly near krdu -- so obviously i'll get a ride there with an instruction, same for a couple other local-ish ones -- but what if i want to fly down to florida? will i have to get an individual sign off? Also, what happens if i'm en-route and 'plans change' -- how in the world do I get a sign off in the middle of flight?! am i just SOL?

My cfi seems to feel that i'll need an endorsement for each that i plan to visit, I don't think he assumes he'll need to ride along to each first, but...

Any advice here would be GREAT!

Thanks!

ka7eej
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Postby ka7eej » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:06 am

This question comes up all the time. Here is what the FARS say..

§ 61.325 How do I obtain privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft at an airport within, or in airspace within, Class B, C, and D airspace, or in other airspace with an airport having an operational control tower?

If you hold a sport pilot certificate and seek privileges to operate a light-sport aircraft in Class B, C, or D airspace, at an airport located in Class B, C, or D airspace, or to, from, through, or at an airport having an operational control tower, you must receive and log ground and flight training. The authorized instructor who provides this training must provide a logbook endorsement that certifies you are proficient in the following aeronautical knowledge areas and areas of operation:

(a) The use of radios, communications, navigation system/facilities, and radar services.

(b) Operations at airports with an operating control tower to include three takeoffs and landings to a full stop, with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern, at an airport with an operating control tower.

(c) Applicable flight rules of part 91 of this chapter for operations in Class B, C, and D airspace and air traffic control clearances.

I read that as one endorsement for all but others disagree.. Read this from AOPA... www.aopa.org/sportpilot

At any rate I would feel better receiving training and flying into all classes with an instructor for my own safety and comfort level..

As most Sport Pilot Rules it depends on who you talk to..

Good Luck../
Brian
Owner of N3081X (Cover Girl) A Beautiful Allegro 2000 as seen on the cover and inside of several magazines!!

Jack Tyler
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Postby Jack Tyler » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:34 am

From Brian's AOPA cite:

"Note, however, that student sport pilots need a separate endorsement for each airspace/airport, whereas for certificated sport pilots, one endorsement will cover all airspace types. Additionally, Part 91, Appendix D, Section 4 provides the list of Class B primary airports in which sport pilots are not permitted. "

Also note, further on, in a short Q&A:
"2. If a sport pilot candidate receives an endorsement for Class B airspace, must he also fly into and receive separate training for C and D airspace? The answer is yes if the candidate is a sport pilot student without a medical, but no if he is a certificated pilot and has just the one endorsement for B/C/D airspace."
Jack
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drseti
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Postby drseti » Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:13 am

Jack and Brian are correct in what they cite; according to the FARs, a single signoff will suffice if you're a licensed Sport Pilot. Now, from a practical standpoint...

As the owner of the aircraft, I am free to set standards more rigorous than the FAA's in deciding who I'll rent the plane to, and what they are allowed to do with it. I like to give my Sport Pilot graduates three post-license lessons, one each in class D, C, and B airspace, with a separate flight into each, if they want the blanket signoff. If they choose not to go the whole way, I will give individual signoffs for the particular airspace in which I have given them training and they have demonstrated competence. Nobody has yet complained, since their goal is to be safe in the particular airspace in which they intend to operate.

The idea that an individual checkout and signoff is necessary for each individual Class D, C, or B area in which you are going to fly only applies to student pilots. Once a Sport Pilot, you are PIC, and (if you've received the blanket endorsement) are free to use any similar airspace. Sport Pilot altitude, daylight, and weather restrictions still apply, of course, as well as the restriction against flying into the 12 airports from which Sport Pilots are always excluded (see http://avsport.org/askdr/index.html#airports for the list).
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
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Jack Tyler
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Postby Jack Tyler » Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:57 pm

Paul:

"I like to give my Sport Pilot graduates three post-license lessons, one each in class D, C, and B airspace, with a separate flight into each, if they want the blanket signoff."

Seems a bit odd to me. Two different sign-offs (D & B/C) sound reasonable and prudent given how different they can be...but one of each?
-- If you signed me off for a Class D and then, next flight, a Class B, for what reason would we need a 3rd, Class C sign-off?
-- If the answer is that you are only willing to follow the D-C-B sequence, then what's so different in the Class C vs. Class B sign-off? Perhaps the nature of your nearest C vs. nearest B? E.g. after flying in/out/around Tampa's Class B and Jax's Class C, they strike me as similar for the GA pilot in complexity, adjacent controlled airspace, comms requirements, etc. and with Jax's Class C perhaps being the more challenging on occasion given the Mayport NS and Jax NAS military traffic. (MacDill AFB in Tampa's Class B is very sleepy by comparison).

[For anyone who cares to compare these two, you can use this link to download FL's FDOT Aviation Chart:
http://www.florida-aviation-database.co ... a47518becc ]
Jack
Flying in/out KBZN, Bozeman MT in a Grumman Tiger
Do you fly for recreational purposes? Please visit http://www.theraf.org

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drseti
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Postby drseti » Sun Aug 14, 2011 1:56 pm

Jack Tyler wrote: If you signed me off for a Class D and then, next flight, a Class B, for what reason would we need a 3rd, Class C sign-off?


Fair question, Jack. The answer is, that hasn't come up yet! :wink: Our nearest Class B airspace would be New York, Philadelphia, or Pittsburgh, all inconveniently equidistant at about 200 miles. So far, my graduates have gone for Class D signoffs (using nearby Williamsport), and Class C (using not-so-close-but-not-too-distant Wilkes Barre). I can see that if someone had asked for Class B first, and was willing to take a trip to one of the Big Cities, the Class C work would be moot, and I'd probably sign off both at once. But if in the usual order, there's complications associated with Class B that the pilot may not have mastered in Class C training.

Of course, if someone wanted to just go to NYC and do all three at once, I suppose I could accommodate him or her. But I don't feel right about signing off for C and B when someone has only been to Williamsport (or any other D) with me.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

theskunk
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Postby theskunk » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:12 pm

So riddle me this, batman:

What if you're doing training out of a class C? Would that mean that your checkride/solos would essentially include a class C/D signoff, since every single departure and final landing were at said class C? Reason I ask, I've done about 40-50 landings at krdu at this point, obviously not pattern/optioned type landings (i go to a nearby class D to practice the option, which is usually so light on traffic i've been cleared well out of what i'd expect...)

My nearest class B is restricted (charlotte) so I'm thinking my nearest class B is actually going to be dulles international, and i'd rather go into there during one of their slow times, as suggested in another thread.

Thanks for all the posts that this has generated, i feel that the information shared here has been really for the benefit of all!

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drseti
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Postby drseti » Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:16 am

theskunk wrote:What if you're doing training out of a class C? Would that mean that your checkride/solos would essentially include a class C/D signoff, since every single departure and final landing were at said class C?


There is no way for anything to "essentially" include a signoff, since logbook endorsements must be explicit, not implied. So, it seems to me your instructor would have three options:

(a) Fly with you (dual) from your home base (class C) to a non-towered (class E or G) airport, where you can do your supervised solos.

(b) Fly with you (dual) from your home base (class C) to a towered but non-radar (class D) airport, where you can do your supervised solos.

(c) Send you out solo to fly from your home (Class C) airport, to a towered (class D) or non-towered (class E or G) airport for solo practice.

Here are the logbook endorsements required under each scenario:

(a) your TSA security signoff, pre-solo written test, >87 knots airspeed signoff, solo flight training endorsement, and a make-and-model specific solo flight endorsement within the previous 90 days.

(b) all the above, plus a Class D airspace endorsement.

(c) all the above, plus a Class C airspace endorsement, plus an endorsement authorizing repeated solos to/from the specified airport.

So, it is incumbent upon your flight instructor to provide the proper endorsements. But, under FAR 91.3(a), it is incumbent upon YOU to make sure you have them!
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

theskunk
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Postby theskunk » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:46 pm

drseti -- thats FANTASTIC information and I greatly appreciate it -- its exactly what I needed to know!

I'm assuming the order I'll go through is just about that -- eventually I'll get signed off to go fly to another airport to do my practice at, but I have a feeling for the first couple of rounds, i'll be flying dual and then practicing supervised, if for nothing more than having him with me for the class C transition.

bryancobb
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Hey Skunk

Postby bryancobb » Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:02 pm

If you want to find out if there's any shortcuts that are taken at Sport flight schools that are constantly interacting with Class C airspace, call Peter O'Knight, in Tampa. The have a couple of 162's, do a lot of Sport instruction, and they underlie Tampa's Class C, and touch MacDill AFB airspace.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Cartersville, Ga
bryandcobb@att.net

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drseti
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Postby drseti » Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:58 pm

Considering all the confusion that obviously exists with regard to Sport Pilot airspace endorsements, I decided to put on my Curriculum Developer hat, and devise a program that covers all bases. What I came up with is a five-day mini-course, structured as a college class, involving 8 hours of dual flight instruction, 7 hours of individualized ground instruction, actual flights in all three types of airspace (plus radar flight following), training materials, and a comprehensive written exam. This is, of course, far in excess of what the FARs require -- it's for the pilot who wants to master airspace, not merely be legal in it.. I've designed it to satisfy not only airspace requirements, but also a Flight Review, and an entire Phase of FAA Wings award training (three Knowledge credits, and three Flight credits, with emphasis areas as required by the FAA Safety Team). The full curriculum is available online at http://AvSport.org/about/airspace.htm, and I encourage other flight schools to make use of it (in part, or in its entirety).

Safe skies,
Paul
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof. H. Paul Shuch, Ph.D., CFII, LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC, iRMT
AvSport of Lock Haven
fly@AvSport.org
http://AvSport.org
http://facebook.com/SportFlying

theskunk
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Postby theskunk » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:57 pm

This is a fantastic idea. I'll be the quick voice of Paul Hamilton here: Have you considered doing any sim work to help prep for the real thing? I know that pilotedge has been mentioned once or twice, and I can vouch that based on my checkout in those airspaces, I was much more prepared and confident in what to say/do/etc.

Either way, I think that the approach that you have, with that syllabus is exactly what should be the minimum for this, whether taught by you or not, and wouldn't be a bad thing in normal private pilot curriculum!


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