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Finally, a place for sport pilot instructors and/or wannabees to talk about instructing.

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drseti
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Post by drseti »

zdc wrote:If an instructor is giving instruction and acting as PIC,
That was the point I was questioning in my previous post. What if the CFI is not acting as PIC?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
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zdc

Post by zdc »

Perhaps you are too educated to accept that a plain language regulation means just what it says. When the FAA is forced to reiterate in writing what the regulation clearly means because intructors without medicals thought that they found a loophole, the validity of some pilots' Private certificates may be in doubt. Right now, some FSDO's may be trying to be overly accomodative, but in the end, what someone at a FSDO has said won't mean a thing.
zdc

Post by zdc »

BTW, is your FSDO rep willing to state in writing, that any instruction you give a student would count towards a Private rating?
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drseti
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Post by drseti »

zdc wrote:BTW, is your FSDO rep willing to state in writing, that any instruction you give a student would count towards a Private rating?
Are you willing to state in writing that it won't?

As I said above, this discussion is academic anyway, as far as my students are concerned, because I have an adjunct instructor on staff who does have a medical.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
zdc

Post by zdc »

drseti wrote:
zdc wrote:BTW, is your FSDO rep willing to state in writing, that any instruction you give a student would count towards a Private rating?
Are you willing to state in writing that it won't?

As I said above, this discussion is academic anyway, as far as my students are concerned, because I have an adjunct instructor on staff who does have a medical.
If you write a letter to your FSDO asking for a written response on this issue, my guess is the FSDO rep will kick it upstairs. Eventualy, a response will be given that you don't want to hear.

The discussion is a little more than academic, since many people who read this board look to you as an authority and you have been proclaiming that all instruction given by a subpart H instructor ,without a medical, would count towards a Private rating. People who believe that may be making a costly mistake.
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bryancobb
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Do this

Post by bryancobb »

drseti and zdc,

Why don't you guys try this. Go back to the "FAA LEGAL DEPARTMENT LETTER" that put us all in this situation in the first place.

Dissect the wording and read it like a LAWYER, and see what the letter states will or won't count.

After the publication of that letter a few years ago, there is absolutely NO ROOM for anyone, anywhere to interpret the FAR's. The Legal Department Interpretation is absolute and trumps all FSDO's, all Flight Schools, all FFF's (Fake Forum Lawyers), all Magazine Editors, and The FAA Administrator until something else is written.

I'm gonna go read it right now.
http://www.121five.com/admin/FeatureArt ... esheet.pdf

KEY TERMINOLOGY IN THE LETTER
* flight instructor with a sport pilot rating
* a flight instructor certified under subpart H
* training must be given by an instructor authorized to provide the training
* from an authorized CFI
KEY TERMINOLOGY NOT IN THE LETTER
* exercising the privileges of a XXXX pilot

After reading the letter, I feel as follows:
Nowhere in the letter is the term "exercising the privileges of.." used.
The letter makes numerous CLEAR distinctions between a "flight instructor with a sport pilot rating" and a "flight instructor certified under subpart H."
Dr. Paul is clearly a "flight instructor certified under subpart H."
I feel that THE LETTER very clearly supports Paul's stance that he is legal to give dual, without a medical, in an LSA, and the student can use it as aeronautical experience toward Private and higher ratings.

zdc, I too have gotten used to using the term "exercising the privileges of..." However, in this case, there is no room to use that terminology.
The only terms that matter are "flight instructor with a sport pilot rating" and a "flight instructor certified under subpart H."

Just my opinion but test it againt the letter yourself.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
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drseti
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Post by drseti »

zdc wrote:The discussion is a little more than academic, since many people who read this board look to you as an authority.
Point very well taken. I have just added a disclaimer to my signature block, which should help clarify things.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
zdc

Post by zdc »

Bryan, the only part of that letter that I see that may pertain to this issue is on page 3, where it talks about subpart H instructors and their time counting towards Private.

It says "...provided the instructor [part H] has met all applicable requirements necessary to provide that instruction at the private pilot level."

If FAR 61.23 is an "applicable requirement", then a subpart H instructor can't provide instruction for private [to a student who can't act as PIC] without a medical.
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drseti
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Post by drseti »

zdc wrote:If you write a letter to your FSDO asking for a written response on this issue, my guess is the FSDO rep will kick it upstairs. Eventualy, a response will be given that you don't want to hear.
Yes, that's absolutely true! The Letter of Interpretation from FAA Legal (which Bryan has cited and linked) came about because somebody asked at the local level, and it got kicked upstairs. So, one should never ask for an LOI, unless one is prepared to accept an answer not to his or her liking.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
Prof H Paul Shuch
PhD CFII DPE LSRM-A/GL/WS/PPC iRMT
AvSport LLC, KLHV
[email protected]
AvSport.org
facebook.com/SportFlying
SportPilotExaminer.US
3Dreaming
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Post by 3Dreaming »

ZDC, I know you chimed in in this old post, but there is a way for the instruction to count according to the regs. 61.23 hasn't kept up with the other changing regs.
http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=105
zdc

Post by zdc »

3Dreaming wrote:ZDC, I know you chimed in in this old post, but there is a way for the instruction to count according to the regs. 61.23 hasn't kept up with the other changing regs.
http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php ... &start=105
I'll just say it one last time, and then I'm done. In the end, as far the FAA is concerned, it all comes down not to what your certificate may say but what privileges you are exercising.

The FAR's say you only need a drivers license to execise the privileges of a flight instructor with a sport rating. Paul's flight instructor certificate does not indicate a sport rating. However, Paul is "exercising" the privileges of a flight instructor with a sport rating so the reg applies. When Paul exercises the privileges of a sport rating all the regs and rulings regarding sport instructors are now in force. Since Paul does not have a medical, when giving instruction and acting as a PIC he is a subpart K instructor only.

In the other thread under "Ask the examiner" the private pilot with a glider rating only needs a profiency check for Sport ASEL, because the glider pilot is now exercising the privileges of a sport pilot and the sport regs now apply.The gliders pilot certificate does not say he has a sport rating.
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Paul Hamilton
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Post by Paul Hamilton »

For these sport/private pilot CFIS questions the last place you should ask is your local FSDO. They all have different opinions.

I remember calling the FAA in OAK City to answer this exact question and it supports the "other Paul's" understanding that subpart H instructors without a medical, their training time counts towards a private except the stuff they need a medical for such as night, and instrument.
Paul is a Sport Pilot CFI/DPE and the expert for ASA who writes the books and produces the DVD's for all pilots flying light sport aircraft.
See www.SportAviationCenter.com www.Sport-Pilot-Training.com and www.BeASportPilot.com to Paul's websites
Helen
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Post by Helen »

Guys, well before Sport Pilot was ever invented the FAA ruled that a CFI could still give dual instruction even without a medical as long as the pilot receiving instruction was rated and current to act as PIC. The CFI didn't get demoted to CFI-S privileges since such didn't even exist at the time!

The thing to remember is that a CFI's airman certificate is independent of his instructor certificate. (This is why obtaining an initial CFI certificate does not renew your BFR clock.) The medical is required as part of the airman certificate, not the CFI certificate.

As a side note, a CFII without a medical can also give instrument instruction, so long as the pilot is rated and current for instruments and the instruction is given in actual IMC. You certainly can't say he's operating as a CFI-S!

Helen
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tadel001
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Post by tadel001 »

Back to the original statement... You can make as good a living being an SPI as a CFI if you know what you are doing. There are many CFIs out there that are not making because of demand. Demand is not just a product of want the customer wants but of what you offer.

The real question to ask is "who is your clientele?" A a very broad generalization, i have found that SPIs teach for the love of aviation and CFIs teach for a career in aviation. If your clientele is learning to fly for pure love of aviation, it would be better to have an instructor with the same passion. Same true with a career in aviation student.
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Post by Jon V »

Not to barge in, but...

I bet there is a huge category factor at play. Most of us here are interested in airplanes, as in fixed wing single engine. There is a logical progression from a Breezer to a Bonanza and most aspiring airplane pilots see that. In the back of their mind they say, "Maybe someday..."

How about if you dreamed of flying a PPC? A weight shift plane? I suspect that someone who dreams of a SP ticket to fly a weight shift trike with a passenger seat doesn't really care that her dual hours won't apply to the PPL that is only needed to fly airplanes she doesn't care about.

I have a coworker who flies PPC ultralights. No real training (an instructor on the ground called out instructions via hand-held radio for a few hours). I tried to get him interested in flying LSA airplanes. "Why would I want to do that?" He was totally serious. "Flying isn't any fun once you get over about 700 feet. With my PPC I can skim along about 200' off the ground at 25MPH, it's great and you can't do that in your heavy sport plane." He's not even interested in a passenger seat.

Just a thought that's been bouncing around in my head awhile.
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