CFI Sport = Impotence !

[zdc]

I think if you take a look at the FAA's stance on flight instruction you would be OK. The FAA has said you do not need a 2nd class medical, or even a 3rd class to provide instruction and be paid for the instruction. For an example a CFI without a medical is OK to give commercial or CFI flight instruction, and can even sign off an applicant for a commercial or CFI checkride. I think the FAA would be hard pressed to say the same CFI could not have his instruction count towards a private ticket because he doesn't have a medical.

Looking at the logic the FAA has applied to Sport, I think you are wrong. If the regs say a CFI can do certain things as you pointed out it is because the CFI is not acting as PIC. When giving flight instruction for private a CFI must have a current medical becuase he is also PIC. If a CFI gives instruction for Sport without a medical he is not qualified to instruct for private and therefor the hours do no count. That is the logic the FAA will apply.

[zdc]

Forgot to include this. If the FAA were to rule that a subpart H instructor [without a medical] instruction for Sport were to count towards private, they have just opened the door for instructors without medicals to instruct for private. This is not something the FAA is going to do. What the FAA will look at is this: was the instructor who gave the instruction at the time fully qualified under regulations to give instruction for the rating being applied for.

[Paul Hamilton]

I think if you take a look at the FAA's stance on flight instruction you would be OK. The FAA has said you do not need a 2nd class medical, or even a 3rd class to provide instruction and be paid for the instruction. For an example a CFI without a medical is OK to give commercial or CFI flight instruction, and can even sign off an applicant for a commercial or CFI checkride. I think the FAA would be hard pressed to say the same CFI could not have his instruction count towards a private ticket because he doesn't have a medical.

Where is the FAA stance on this? Where did the FAA say this?

[Paul Hamilton]

Forgot to include this. If the FAA were to rule that a subpart H instructor [without a medical] instruction for Sport were to count towards private, they have just opened the door for instructors without medicals to instruct for private. This is not something the FAA is going to do. What the FAA will look at is this: was the instructor who gave the instruction at the time fully qualified under regulations to give instruction for the rating being applied for.

This is how I understand it. Instructor has to have it before they can give it.

[3Dreaming]

If you look at 61.23 I see how you came up with what you say. If you look at 61.429 with one simple word it says the the sport pilot training provided by a subpart "H" CFI with out a medical would count for a higher pilot certificate. 61.429 says that i can exercise the privileges of 61.193 and 61.413. 61.193 says that I can provide training for a pilot certificate.

61.429 May I exercise the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating if I hold a flight instructor certificate with another rating?
If you hold a flight instructor certificate, a commercial pilot certificate with an airship rating, or a commercial pilot certificate with a balloon rating issued under this part, and you seek to exercise the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating, you may do so without any further showing of proficiency, subject to the following limits:

(a) You are limited to the aircraft category and class ratings listed on your flight instructor certificate, commercial pilot certificate with an airship rating, or commercial pilot certificate with a balloon rating, as appropriate, when exercising your flight instructor privileges AND the privileges specified in §61.413.

(b) You must comply with the limits specified in §61.415 and the recordkeeping requirements of §61.423.

(c) If you want to exercise the privileges of your flight instructor certificate in a category or class of light-sport aircraft for which you are not currently rated, you must meet all applicable requirements to provide training in an additional category or class of light-sport aircraft specified in §61.419.

[zdc]

I know what you are saying and it does have its' own logic. But 61.23 and 61.2 say a CFI must have a III class medical to instruct private. The FAA WILL NOT allow a CFI without a current medical instruct for private, even if the student starts out as a Sport student pilot. When you fill out an application for a rating for private you have two areas of aeronautical experience you must meet, dual and solo. Solo is solo, it just means you were the only occupant of the aircraft. Dual is given by an instructor, and for private the regs say a CFI can not exercise the privileges for instructing private if he has a suspended, revoked or expired medical certificate. FAR 61.23 is quite clear that a CFI needs a medical to act as PIC for private. The Sport rule makes an exception to the medical requirement but for Sport privileges ONLY.

When you apply for a private rating, you are applying for private not sport, and that means any hours of dual instruction you want to put on the application as meeting aeronautical experience requirements must have been logged by an instructor who meets the qualifications to instruct for private. If you were a student pilot seeking a private pilot rating , you can take your instruction in a sport plane, and a CFI with an expired medical can act as PIC under the sport rule, so would you use a CFI with an expired medical to instuct you in a sport plane for your private rating?

[zdc]

[quote="3Dreaming"]. 61.429 .If you hold a flight instructor certificate, a commercial pilot certificate with an airship rating, or a commercial pilot certificate with a balloon rating issued under this part, and you seek to exercise the privileges of a flight instructor certificate with a sport pilot rating, you may do so without any further showing of proficiency, subject to the following limits:

If what I just said doesn't convince you, the quotation from the regs that you provided should.

" If you hold a flight instructor certificate........and you seek to exercise the PRIVILEGES of a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR with a SPORT PILOT RATING.....

All this means is a CFI to teach sport doesn't have to take any tests, and if he doesn't have a medical and acts as PIC the only privileges he has is those of a flight instructor with a sport rating. A flight instructor with a sport pilot rating does not have private pilot privileges.

[drseti]

If a CFI gives instruction for Sport without a medical he is not qualified to instruct for private and therefor the hours do no count. That is the logic the FAA will apply.

On the other hand, a CFI without a medical is qualified to be PIC in an LSA. He or she is in fact PIC when giving dual to a student sport pilot, and holds both a commercial pilot certificate and an instrument rating (two of the few things that distinguish him or her from a CFIS). Therefore, it seems only logical that all instruction given by a CFI (with or without medical) in an LSA should count toward higher ratings. As I see it, the only thing the CFI without a medical can't do in an LSA is give the night instruction required for the Private.

Oh, wait -- did I say logical? Sorry. I forgot that we were talking about the FAA here.

[drseti]

The Sport rule makes an exception to the medical requirement but for Sport privileges ONLY.

.

Really? My interpretation is that the Sport rule makes an exception to the medical requirement for flying Sport aircraft only. This is a different thing entirely. So, if instruction is given in an LSA by a CFI without a medical, the CFI can still be PIC, regardless of the rating for which instruction is being given (Sport, Private, Commercial, ATP, Instrument rating, whatever!)

When I sign your logbook, I put my name, certificate type and number, and expiration date. It says CFII. I'm required only to have renewed my flight instructor certificate within the previous 24 calendar months, not my medical. Nowhere in my signoff does it say (nor is it required to say) whether I do or don't hold a medical certificate. So it's irrelevant.

[zdc]

If a CFI gives instruction for Sport without a medical he is not qualified to instruct for private and therefor the hours do no count. That is the logic the FAA will apply.

On the other hand, a CFI without a medical is qualified to be PIC in an LSA. He or she is in fact PIC when giving dual to a student sport pilot, and holds both a commercial pilot certificate and an instrument rating (two of the few things that distinguish him or her from a CFIS). Therefore, it seems only logical that all instruction given by a CFI (with or without medical) in an LSA should count toward higher ratings. As I see it, the only thing the CFI without a medical can't do in an LSA is give the night instruction required for the Private.

Oh, wait -- did I say logical? Sorry. I forgot that we were talking about the FAA here.

Unfortunately, we are talking about what is permitted , not what should be permitted.

My advice to any student seeking a sport rating is this: If you think you may in the future seek a private rating and you will be angry that you may have to take an additional 5-10 hours of training because your instructor did not have a medical , then make sure you get a subpart H instructor with a current medical in the first place. However, since you have chosen to start with sport, for whatever reason, I think you would be much better off with instructors who have also chosen sport as their specialty to teach you.

[zdc]

The Sport rule makes an exception to the medical requirement but for Sport privileges ONLY.

.

Really? My interpretation is that the Sport rule makes an exception to the medical requirement for flying Sport aircraft only. This is a different thing entirely. So, if instruction is given in an LSA by a CFI without a medical, the CFI can still be PIC, regardless of the rating for which instruction is being given (Sport, Private, Commercial, ATP, Instrument rating, whatever!)

When I sign your logbook, I put my name, certificate type and number, and expiration date. It says CFII. I'm required only to have renewed my flight instructor certificate within the previous 24 calendar months, not my medical. Nowhere in my signoff does it say (nor is it required to say) whether I do or don't hold a medical certificate. So it's irrelevant.

To exercise the privileges of flight instructor with a sport rating does not require a medical, to exercise the privileges to instruct private requires a third class medical to act as PIC. If a sport pilot makes an application for a private rating, the fact that he has a sport rating means nothing. What counts is does he have the required dual instruction for private.

I hope you are not saying that there are instructors out there instructing for private in sport planes without medicals. If they are, they are in clear violation of 61.23, whether it is in a sport plane or not.

[zdc]

The Sport rule makes an exception to the medical requirement but for Sport privileges ONLY.

.

Really? My interpretation is that the Sport rule makes an exception to the medical requirement for flying Sport aircraft only. This is a different thing entirely. So, if instruction is given in an LSA by a CFI without a medical, the CFI can still be PIC, regardless of the rating for which instruction is being given (Sport, Private, Commercial, ATP, Instrument rating, whatever!)

When I sign your logbook, I put my name, certificate type and number, and expiration date. It says CFII. I'm required only to have renewed my flight instructor certificate within the previous 24 calendar months, not my medical. Nowhere in my signoff does it say (nor is it required to say) whether I do or don't hold a medical certificate. So it's irrelevant.

If you fly a sport plane, whether you need a medical or not depends on what PRIVILEGES you are exercising. If you are instructing private, you had better have a medical.

[Paul Hamilton]

Wow. I am amazed this is being debated that a CFI can teach private pilots, in any airplane without a medical???.

to start - 61.23 A 3 ii is pretty clear. A CFI needs a medical to teach private pilots. Not sure how this could be misunderstood.

Forget 61.429 since this has nothing to do with teaching private pilots it is for sport pilots

61.109 is clear by saying "authorized instructor" for the dual training hours for a private. An instructor is not authorized to teach private unless they have a valid CFI certificate and 3rd class medical.

Any CFI, CFII operating without a 3 rd class medical is a CFIS.

Again, this is clearly defined in 61.23 a 3 reading "Must hold a third class medical certificate, ii "when exercising the privileges of a flight instructor certificate, except for a flight instructor with a glider category or sport pilot rating, ...."

Again, any CFI, CFII operating without a 3 rd class medical is a CFIS and cannot teach private pilots.

Yes I know it does not make sense, and yes it is not what we want, and yes it should be different, but it is what it is. It is the FAA rules, it does not need to make sense or be fail or logical

Simply call the FAA if you do not like my answer - main office 405 954 6400 or Rich Michaels, my POI, at 405 954 6406. They get calls from those who do not like my answers no big deal.

If anyone firmly believes otherwise or there is any question you better call the FAA and get this cleaned up immediately.

Summary: You need a third class medical to be an authorized instructor to teach private pilots or to have the dual training time count towards a private pilot certificate.

[bryancobb]

Everybody Listen-Up...

The letter from the FAA Legal Department trumps all FAR's, until someone puts it in writing that the letter doesn't apply any more!!!!!!!!!

CFIS dual hours never count toward private & above aeronautical exp.

The same leter I mention above clearly states on page 3 paragraph 3, that for subpart H CFI's dual hours given (regardless of wheither given in an LSA or not) to count toward the private license, the CFI must have "met all applicable requirements necessry to provide that instruction at the private pilot level." THAT INCLUDES A VALID MEDICAL.

I hate it BUT IT JUST CAN"T BE DONE!

[flyingclay]

Since I'm new, this is all confusing to me, but think if wanted to be a sport pilot instructor, would just go find a bunch of those "That drive up in their shiny Jag that want someone else washed for them", casue they probably aren't going to worry if the cost of these hours don't transfer to PPL later. Just a thought.