3Dreaming wrote:Actually the debate started as could the instruction given by a sub part "H" instructor be used if the student moves on to the private, and not could the sub part "H" instructor give private instruction without a medical there is a big difference. I agree that that the regs are clear about giving private instruction without a medical when acting as PIC, even though you could take the same student for a ride in the LSA while acting as PIC. So as a sub part "H" instructor without a medical I can give all the training required for a sport pilot rating, and sign the student off for his check ride per 61.429. Now after he passes his check ride I can give him all of the instruction for his private except the night training, and maybe the instrument training because I'm not acting as PIC per 61.23. The question is does the training I provided for the sport rating count for the private rating?
In the example above, it appears that if the sport pilot is the pilot in command in a LSA only, the CFI with no medical can provide private pilot training pilot as the CFI since he is not pilot in command. I would agree with this.
Last edited by Paul Hamilton on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
I think debate is good because it makes us look a the regs a little closer. So now 61.429 allows me to give a sport pilot student all of his training to get his sport license without having a medical in an LSA that is not in question. But 61.429 says quote "when exercising your flight instructor privileges and the privileges specified in §61.413.". My privileges are listed in 61.193 allow me to give instruction for a pilot certificate. While the regs say I can not give instruction to a private pilot student in an LSA without a medical, even though I can act as PIC of a LSA. I think there is a pretty clear reg trail that says I can give sport pilot instruction, and that instruction would count towards the private pilot if the sport pilot wanted to upgrade.
I just talked to the FAA and got the story. I apologize personally for anything I misinterpreted in the past. We are all trying to figure this out but here it is.
A subpart H (private) flight instructor can instruct a private pilot in a light sport aircraft without a medical. However, no instruction in a non LSA because he cannot fly it/be pilot in command.
All hours count towards a sport and private certificate (except night and instrument for private) because the CFI is PIC of the LSA.
I just talked with Rich Michaels FAA at 405 954 6406 where he helped us clarify this issue.
Again, sorry for any misunderstanding. My goal is to help us all get it right.
Last edited by Paul Hamilton on Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
3Dreaming wrote:I think debate is good because it makes us look a the regs a little closer. So now 61.429 allows me to give a sport pilot student all of his training to get his sport license without having a medical in an LSA that is not in question. But 61.429 says quote "when exercising your flight instructor privileges and the privileges specified in §61.413.". My privileges are listed in 61.193 allow me to give instruction for a pilot certificate. While the regs say I can not give instruction to a private pilot student in an LSA without a medical, even though I can act as PIC of a LSA. I think there is a pretty clear reg trail that says I can give sport pilot instruction, and that instruction would count towards the private pilot if the sport pilot wanted to upgrade.
Just so there is no confusion, a subpart K CFIS can not provide flight instruction, or the dual training hours do not count for a private pilot, "not yet".
Paul Hamilton wrote:I just talked to the FAA and got the story. I apologize personally for anything I misinterpreted in the past. We are all trying to figure this out but here it is.
A subpart H (private) flight instructor can instruct a private pilot in a light sport aircraft without a medical. However, no instruction in a non LSA because he cannot fly it/be pilot in command.
All hours count towards a sport and private certificate (except night and instrument for private) because the CFI is PIC of the LSA.
I just talked with Rich Michaels FAA at 405 954 6406 where he helped us clarify this issue.
Again, sorry for any misunderstanding. My goal is to help us all get it right.
Getting clarification of a rule over the phone from the FAA can be the same as talking to the IRS. Ask your contact to give his interpretation to you in writing.
The CFI should be able to give instrument training in an LSA if it has the required equipment as long as they are in day VMC. I agree no night without a medical. Can a CFIS give the instrument training required by 61.93 (e)(12)?
Why does someone not settle this once and for all with a letter to the FAA Chief Counsel? Would that not be the easiest way to deal with all of this non-sense?
KSCessnaDriver wrote:Why does someone not settle this once and for all with a letter to the FAA Chief Counsel? Would that not be the easiest way to deal with all of this non-sense?
Yes that is how it has to be. The smaller branch offices have put out letters in the past that have been over ridden with the "pay grade above", so they are not going to put anything in writing. Any letter from the FAA on these issues will come from the lawyers, so hope no one is in a hurry for an answer in writing.
Based on the discussions here and my understanding from my phone call to my POI at the FAA, I am publishing the following:
Here is a unique situation where a subpart H (private) flight instructor (CFI) has a current flight instructor certificate but let his 3rd class medical expire.
He/she can instruct a student private pilot in a light sport aircraft without a medical and the time counts towards a sport pilot and private pilot because he/she is pilot in command (PIC). All hours count towards a sport and private certificate (except night) because the CFI has a valid Subpart H flight instructor certificate and is PIC of the LSA. He/she cannot fly or provide instruction in a non LSA, at night in any aircraft or in IFR conditions in any aircraft because he/she cannot be pilot in command.
The CFI with expired medical and a CFIS can give instrument training in a LSA required by 61.93 (e)(12) before a student cross country if it has the required equipment as long as they are in day VMC. No attitude display is required for this and a partial panel (compass, airspeed, altitude) is adequate.
The following web sites have been updated with this information.
There was an earlier post where someone said that "Dan Johnson said" that sport pilot training was applicable to private. I finally talked to Dan about this and as I assumed he did get a detail of this simple, but ends up being complex subject matter not exactly right.
We did a post on his site to clear the slate on this matter.
I check Dan's site every day to see any updated and new information he has provided. I saw the article on the front page and thought it was nicely done. Dan provides a ton of free information and like I said before, he will readily admit and correct if he makes an error. Thanks for the update Paul.
