CFI Sport = Impotence !

[bryancobb]

The lawyers got involved.
SINCE THIS RULING, Training from a CFI-S cannot be used to meet aeronautical experience requirement for Private and above!
http://www.121five.com/admin/FeatureArt ... esheet.pdf

[zdc]

Let's say a sport pilot took all his instruction for the Sport rating from a subpart H instructor, so that all that instruction would count towards private. When the Sport pilot decides to go for Private what additional instruction is needed?
One additional hour of xcntry training, three hours instrument training, three hours night training, and at least one hour of class D training. That is 8 hours right there. You can bet there would be an additional 6-8 hours of training preparing for the PTS and just getting use to flying a different type of airplane.

Someone who took all of their sport training from a subpart K instructor would not really be hurt all that much if he were to decide to pursue Private later.

[Paul Hamilton]

Just so there in no confusion...

If you train with a CFIS (sport pilot CFI), your training only counts towards a sport pilot license. It can NOT be used for private. If you want to go on to private pilot, you will need 20 more minimum hours with CFI who teaches private.

Paul -

Sorry, I'm confused. I thought the FAA has interpreted the flight instruction rules in such a way that should a student earn his sport pilot certificate under a CFI-S, his/her total flight time and solo time will be credited towards requirements for a private pilot or higher certificate, but not his/her dual instruction. Wouldn't one simply need to meet / redo only the minimum 15 hour dual instruction sport pilot certificate requirement for Airplane category and Single Engine Land/Sea class?

Thanks

OK so there still is confusion. Lets look at it a different way. It would be best to pull out 61.109 a as you read this. If someone is trained by a CFIS and gets their sport pilot certificate and they want to go on to private - Solo time is solo time. Solo time does count as long as it meets the additional distance requirements, or you can go out and do those as a sport pilot solo and you are covered. The undefined 10 hours of "flight time" (40total -20dual -10 solo)can be in any catagory and your time as a sport pilot counts.

In 91.109 it specifies the 20 hours if flight instruction from an authorized (not 15) that do not count. These must be from a CFI (private). If your dual training for the sport was done by a CFI (private) it does count. training

[zdc]

The lawyers got involved.
SINCE THIS RULING, Training from a CFI-S cannot be used to meet aeronautical experience requirement for Private and above!
http://www.121five.com/admin/FeatureArt ... esheet.pdf

As the FAA letter points out, the requirements for a subpart H flight instructor are considerably higher than a subpart K flight instructor. Any subpart K instructor not happy with the restrictions to their instruction can always go through the time and expense and become a subpart H instructor. Since flight instruction has the worst return on investment that I can think of [ job wise], saving the expense of a Commercial rating [ required for H but not for K] is a good trade off.

[Paul Hamilton]

Just because someone has more hours and experience, does not make them a better or more efficient teacher. From my observations, some of the high time ego centered pilots make the worst instructors. They care about themselves and how they do, how they learned, what worked best for them rather than what is the best way to teach this individual student and work best for them. Besides just deciding between a CFI or a CFIS, you should try them out rather than only look at the numbers and the ratings.

Do not be afraid of asking questions. When a potential student asks me detailed questions I rank them higher as a student I want to teach because they show responsibility and qualities I like to see in the student pilot. Here are some questions that will make this process efficient as you are interviewing instructors before you fly.
http://beasportpilot.com/start-flying/l ... nstructor/

Here are some questions after you take an introductory flight with the instructor

http://beasportpilot.com/start-flying/lsa-sport-flight/

[ArionAv8or]

Just because someone has more hours and experience, does not make them a better or more efficient teacher.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Being a great pilot doesn't make you a good teacher and the instructor makes all the difference in the world.

[ibgarrett]

Sounds like a good website to make. "Find your CFI and rate them"... hmmm....

[dholly]

Paul -

Thank you. I understand the private pilot requirements in 61.109, and the need for a sport pilot seeking PP privileges to meet them. I also understand CFIS dual instruction hours can not be used to meet the 20 hour PP dual instruction requirement. However, I wasn't referring to the PP dual instruction time specifically.

I was simply trying to clarify that the only part of your training that had to be redone (or might be considered 'wasted' by some) was the 15 hours of dual instruction from a CFIS... again, not that it would be the only additional training required... but also, that all other time in one's SP training still counted towards the PP total time requirement.

I suspect the need to clarify stemmed from my interpretation that all hours as a student pilot are considered hours while 'in training'. Therefore, your explanation (in bold below) seemed to throw ALL non-solo SP training time out the window (not just the dual time taken with a CFIS). This was doubly confusing because it was in conflict to what I had just read in NAFI's newly updated and released A CFI's Guide to Sport Pilot and Light Sport Aircraft.

Unfortunately, I did not phrase my comment as clearly or unambiguously as I could have. If I have added to the confusion for others, my apologies for that.

Thanks!

Just so there in no confusion...

If you train with a CFIS (sport pilot CFI), your training only counts towards a sport pilot license. It can NOT be used for private. If you want to go on to private pilot, you will need 20 more minimum hours with CFI who teaches private.

Paul -

Sorry, I'm confused. I thought the FAA has interpreted the flight instruction rules in such a way that should a student earn his sport pilot certificate under a CFI-S, his/her total flight time and solo time will be credited towards requirements for a private pilot or higher certificate, but not his/her dual instruction. Wouldn't one simply need to meet / redo only the minimum 15 hour dual instruction sport pilot certificate requirement for Airplane category and Single Engine Land/Sea class?

Thanks

OK so there still is confusion. Lets look at it a different way. It would be best to pull out 61.109 a as you read this. If someone is trained by a CFIS and gets their sport pilot certificate and they want to go on to private - Solo time is solo time. Solo time does count as long as it meets the additional distance requirements, or you can go out and do those as a sport pilot solo and you are covered. The undefined 10 hours of "flight time" (40total -20dual -10 solo)can be in any catagory and your time as a sport pilot counts.

In 91.109 it specifies the 20 hours if flight instruction from an authorized (not 15) that do not count. These must be from a CFI (private). If your dual training for the sport was done by a CFI (private) it does count. training

[Paul Hamilton]

Paul -

Thank you. I understand the private pilot requirements in 61.109, and the need for a sport pilot seeking PP privileges to meet them. I also understand CFIS dual instruction hours can not be used to meet the 20 hour PP dual instruction requirement. However, I wasn't referring to the PP dual instruction time specifically.

I was simply trying to clarify that the only part of your training that had to be redone (or might be considered 'wasted' by some) was the 15 hours of dual instruction from a CFIS... again, not that it would be the only additional training required... but also, that all other time in one's SP training still counted towards the PP total time requirement.

I suspect the need to clarify stemmed from my interpretation that all hours as a student pilot are considered hours while 'in training'. Therefore, your explanation (in bold below) seemed to throw ALL non-solo SP training time out the window (not just the dual time taken with a CFIS). This was doubly confusing because it was in conflict to what I had just read in NAFI's newly updated and released A CFI's Guide to Sport Pilot and Light Sport Aircraft.

Unfortunately, I did not phrase my comment as clearly or unambiguously as I could have. If I have added to the confusion for others, my apologies for that.

Thanks!

Paul -

Sorry, I'm confused. I thought the FAA has interpreted the flight instruction rules in such a way that should a student earn his sport pilot certificate under a CFI-S, his/her total flight time and solo time will be credited towards requirements for a private pilot or higher certificate, but not his/her dual instruction. Wouldn't one simply need to meet / redo only the minimum 15 hour dual instruction sport pilot certificate requirement for Airplane category and Single Engine Land/Sea class?

Thanks

OK so there still is confusion. Lets look at it a different way. It would be best to pull out 61.109 a as you read this. If someone is trained by a CFIS and gets their sport pilot certificate and they want to go on to private - Solo time is solo time. Solo time does count as long as it meets the additional distance requirements, or you can go out and do those as a sport pilot solo and you are covered. The undefined 10 hours of "flight time" (40total -20dual -10 solo)can be in any catagory and your time as a sport pilot counts.

In 91.109 it specifies the 20 hours if flight instruction from an authorized (not 15) that do not count. These must be from a CFI (private). If your dual training for the sport was done by a CFI (private) it does count. training

For such an implied “simple regulation” we all need to clarify. If it was as simple as it was supposed to be, we would not be having this conversation. Overall, this will help others understand. No apologies needed. I am not always the best communicator myself, just ask my wife.

[cfiiguy]

so just to mess things up a little more, if the sport training is done by an instructor (say a CFII-MEI) who has decided to teach at the sport pilot level, who does not have a medical, do THOSE hours count if they decide to go for the PPL?

[bryancobb]

Since a medical is not reqd for the CFII/MEI unless he is acting as PIC of a particular flight, this instructor can give any required dual to an ALREADY RATED pilot, recreational or higher, who is acting as PIC of the flight.
He cannot give any dual, recreational or higher, that requires him to be PIC, unless he holds a medical.

IF his last medical was not denied, he CAN give Sport Pilot dual instruction.

This is my interpretation.?????

[zdc]

so just to mess things up a little more, if the sport training is done by an instructor (say a CFII-MEI) who has decided to teach at the sport pilot level, who does not have a medical, do THOSE hours count if they decide to go for the PPL?

This is one of those areas where someone will write a letter to their local FSDO and a year later FAA legal will reply with an answer. There are two possible responses from the FAA.

1. If the instructor possesed a curent and valid subpart H flight instructor certificate, then the training would count towards private.

2. Since the instructor does not posses a medical, he is exercising the privileages of subpart K instructor and the hours would not count.

[Paul Hamilton]

Yes cfiguy, another trouble maker. Just kidding

It turns out that a current CFI without a medical can teach PP and the hours do count towards private pilot. However, he can not teach night or in IFR because he can not be PIC.

[ibgarrett]

This topic is just mind-numbing... but I have to add to more of the numbness...

So if I trained under the latter of the two (CFI w/ no medical) and I manage to move on and get a PP before legal can make their ruling, THEN what do you suppose may happen? Ack!

Brian

[3Dreaming]

I think if you take a look at the FAA's stance on flight instruction you would be OK. The FAA has said you do not need a 2nd class medical, or even a 3rd class to provide instruction and be paid for the instruction. For an example a CFI without a medical is OK to give commercial or CFI flight instruction, and can even sign off an applicant for a commercial or CFI checkride. I think the FAA would be hard pressed to say the same CFI could not have his instruction count towards a private ticket because he doesn't have a medical.