High LSA cost and insurability

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Roger
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Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:05 am

Probably shouldn't be flying...

Post by Roger »

It would by my thought that the FAA pull leithalweapon's license. With his obvious lack of knowledge, lack of common sense, lack of respect for fellow pilots it seems he couldn't possibly be qualified to fly!

Roger H

And I'll make the same offer to him as I have others....be happy to pay your air fair out to our fly-in in March - probably be fifty or so LSA pilots for you to sit and talk with! Let me know your name and address and I'll send the ticket.
leithalweapon
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Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:46 pm
Location: DeKalb Illinois

Post by leithalweapon »

relax, take a deep breath and hold it for 5 seconds. It'll be O.K.. It's just a forum. I'll stop the forum rage if you do. Deal?

Making threats is probably not a good idea.
Roger
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Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:05 am

totally relaxed

Post by Roger »

I'm in Hawaii on vacation so I'm totally relaxed and no rage just calling a spade a spade! Oh, and no threats - just promises - I assume you're talking about the free airline ticket! Hope you can make it in May.

Gotta get back to the pool...

Aloha!

Roger
Jim Stewart
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Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:49 pm

Post by Jim Stewart »

I guess I should add my image to the rogue's gallery of fat gray CT owners...

http://daviswiki.org/Users/JimStewart

I'd like to add that my wife is also a CT owner/pilot and is neither fat nor gray.

I'm 56 and would have zero problems getting a class 3 medical. I can still hike the Sierras 8-10 miles in a day and outwork my aged 20-something employees. If you're resentful that I can afford a CT and you can't, come back after you've starved for 4 years and lived frugally for another 4 years, and finally made good money for yet another 4 years. That's what it took me building my own business. And I had a great ride doing it. I suspect I started dreaming about flying and owning an airplane when I was your age. Money and time didn't let me do it until now. Is that the fault of light sport?

I don't think that light sport has pushed up the cost of learning to fly. It's just that training in a new CT or Sportstar is going to be more expensive than training in a 30 year old 150. No doubt about it. The price of C150 hours has not gone up and is still an option. As are traditional ultralights.

I get the feeling that you're angry because the new light sport regulations made it harder for you to fly an ultralight. I think that was the original intent of the change, to let the FAA get control of all those little airplanes. If that's the case, and I were in your shoes, I'd be upset too. But that's not our fault. We didn't lobby to get the rules changed.
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CharlieTango
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Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Post by CharlieTango »

jim,

you don't look andy older/fatter/grayer than me, at least not much 8)

BTW thanks for the washers, working well so far.
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CharlieTango
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Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Post by CharlieTango »

leithalweapon wrote:relax, take a deep breath and hold it for 5 seconds. It'll be O.K.. It's just a forum. I'll stop the forum rage if you do. Deal?

Making threats is probably not a good idea.

lw,

there wasn't a threat included in roger's message to you. there is some good cop / bad cop going on ( all from one guy ) but his offer is genuine and valuable. a trip to oregon in the spring with days of ctsw flying. you would have to mix it up with some oder/fatter/grayer people but some ctsw pilot/owners aren't that hard to look at. and some are nice people, worth getting to know.

one of our favorite members is young handsome and phsically challenged. he is an inspiration to all of us in many ways.
clr4theapch
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Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 10:00 pm
Location: Kennedy Space Center...

Hi-jacked Thread

Post by clr4theapch »

Hey folks, I certainly did not intend to start this thread and cause all this flame throwing... I see some comments that address some of my original statement, but really.. the subjects I wrote about have not been touched..

Lack of FBO's renting SLSA, the ability for FBO's to get them insured.. I can admit that i cant afford to buy an LSA.. But I could not afford to by a normal catagory acft either.. so the next best thing would be to rent one.. it not an easy thing to do unless I want to drive 500 mile...

I am a older grey Fat guy.. full careers, etc.. just the typical middle american.. but I cant pay or justify these prices, I still say the EAA was pushing a pipe dream in the early days of LSA talk.. I wrote of the prices that were thrown around in those days, guess this was just pure BS to help their cause..

I am glad that some here can afford the acft they have.. good for you.. you obviously earned and are able to pay the price.. but for the avg joe it is way out of reach....NOw that the this all approved, the capitalists, insurance companies, FAA etc.. have got their piece of the pie and it all drives the price up...

I think everyone would have been better off to have made these acft affordable for the average perons and sell 100,000 of them than to triple the price and sell a 1,000 of them..

Please, in my little SLSA dream world, all I wanted is something to fly around here within 25 to 50 miles during the day in good weather.. I could care less of the EFIS and all thay other fancy electronics.. its no the intent of these airplanes for me.. If you want those toys and need real transportaton, then pay for it.. but the range of availability of acft sould be much broader.... again, just my observation as a former airline employee, instrument rated commercail Pilot...

now back to the show
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SkySteve
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Location: Huntsville, UT (OGD)

Post by SkySteve »

I DO understand your frustration, clr4theapch. That's why I fly a used Kitfox.
Steve Wilson
Huntsville, UT
Kitfox
Convertible Nose Wheel & Tail Wheel
912A / Warp Drive Prop
Cub flyer
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Post by Cub flyer »

Here is what LSA manufacturers are competing against for the luxury market.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/audi-r8.html


A good question would be how does the finish, production volume, resale, etc of a new LSA stack up against one of these.

The local Audi dealer says they are only allowed 2 per year to sell and when they are sold out until 2010. They rope them off in the show room and the people who do have orders or delivered cars can resell them for $10,000 higher than they purchased them for.


Does a new SLSA have more parts, more volume etc.


I'm not a car fanatic but the price similarity got my attention. This is probably a near perfect work of art. I would expect no taping, string holding doors on, wiring problems etc. The service work Audi does when there is a problem or complaint is very good.

The makers of new SLSA need better quality and creature comfort to back up their prices before I buy another. I'm not picky but heating and ventilating of at least the level our 50 year old Tripacer has would be a start. And better testing of the reassembled airplanes before delivery.


I'd like to see a normal configuration, tricycle gear LSA with performance slightly better than a 150 and a cabin large enough to fit normal people inside.

The performance of a lot of new SLSA is spectacular compared to my old cub but these new pilots need a easy to fly trainer not a rocket.

Much as I am mad at X air from my kit experiences their SLSA is pretty close and priced at 46,500. Still no good at heating or cooling.

I just would like to deal with an American company and have extruded wing spars instead of tubular spars.

Used prices should be pretty reasonable in a couple years.

My old cub soldiers on with the SP training. Bouncing away every day.
vwvectors
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Post by vwvectors »

What's wrong with tubular spars?
Opinions are like armpits everybody has a couple & they usually stink .
Jim Stewart
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Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:49 pm

Post by Jim Stewart »

You know the difference between a $100k Audi and a $100k LSA?

When you get up to 70 and pull back on the steering wheel, not much happens in the Audi.
rsteele
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Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:40 pm

Post by rsteele »

CubFlyer,

I like the comparison, but I think it's more about how people with a little money chose to spend it. It (perhaps unfortunately) doesn't take the hours of training and a lot more hours of studying to get a driver's license, and you can't take your LSA to the grocery store or soccer practice.

As far a quality goes, have you looked at the Tecnams? I'm training in a p92 Echo Super. The heater will drive you out of the plane and I've never felt a draft in it. To be fair, the weight restrictions in planes make fit and finish much harder than a car, and this is especially true in an LSA. Oh, by the way, I'm 6'9" tall and tip the scales at around 300. The p92 is a tight fit for me, but I have more leg/head room than most cars. For more normally sized folks, this pane should be very comfortable. For comparison, I wedged myself into a friend's SR22 once - no way would I ever go flying in it - keens in my face and head bent way down because of lack of headroom.

Still there is just no excuse for the bad dealer services we've been reading about. That definitely needs to be fixed.

Good flying!
Ron
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CharlieTango
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Location: Mammoth Lakes, California

Post by CharlieTango »

Jim Stewart wrote:You know the difference between a $100k Audi and a $100k LSA?

When you get up to 70 and pull back on the steering wheel, not much happens in the Audi.
when i get to 70 and then open the throttle my audi flys at about the same speed as my ctsw

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Cub flyer
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Post by Cub flyer »

Walking around the hangar and looking at the parking lot we can see some interesting things.

The car manufacturers all make complete units. Engine, brakes, electronics, body parts, wheels. They are not always made in house but there are not other company labels on them

The Airplanes are virtual parts warehouses. All are big collections of parts from outside vendors. The airframes are made from standard stock sizes of raw materials. Very little special parts used except formed fairings and tips, Glass, and a few castings and stretched metal parts.

All vendors need to make a profit and have company expenses to cover that would not be needed in an integrated company.

This does not include the composite airplanes.

Cost for LSA is directly related to parts count. The airplane manufacturers are cottage industry people making airplanes with limited tooling.

This is good in that it allows rapid design change and repair in the field. It is bad because they are labor intensive to build.

Even the composite airplanes need way to much labor.

It is like we are flying around in indy cars but what we need is a sedan.

One striking thing is ease of entry. That was the biggest thing I enjoyed about the CT was the door frame size and the way they closed tightly.

missing outside door handles was not my favorite.

But it make entry and exit as easy as a car.

Why can't we make a LSA fuselage from formed 6061 T-4 aluminum panels stamped in a similar fashion to the pillars and body panels of a Honda CRX or Prius. Same interior dimensions as auto front seats. Spot weld them together to hold alignment in the jig and then Tig finish weld.

Wings and aft fuselage would be solid rivets squeezed with pneumatic squeezer. (no blind rivets or bucking bars). Internal flanges so no exposed rivets except on the bulkheads.

Composite control surfaces and tips. Composite seat pans. Composite doors.

Metal stamped nose bowl and cowl with bottom hinged doors. Then they hang down while your looking inside.

For power we need a direct drive, single carb, 4 cylinder engine making 85 hp at 2450 RPM and a 68" 2 blade propeller. 2 mags with electric start and alternator. Weight of 180 lbs.

Tricycle gear, steerable nose wheel. Optional manual flaps. Plexiglass windows. Am Safe airbag seat belts

Gravity feed fuel system

The Cubs old stromberg carb has automatic mixture control without any moving parts except the float and throttle plate. It senses air pressure on the float bowl and meters fuel. I burned up an expensive IGSO-540 once due to bellows and diaprham auto mixture control malfunction and have been distrustful of them since. The constant depression carb on my jabiru was always a pain too.

How about a regular carb with a servo linked to a controller and auto oxygen sensor. Have a way to push the linkage rich manually if it screws up. Standard RC model stuff would work. That would give the best leaning. 4 into 1 exhaust and average all of them. Tuned intake runners. If you absolutely had to have auto mixture.

Make it an option.

Seems like there are simpler and less complex ways to make an airplane and get 90-80 percent of the performance that the best LSA's are getting now for 1/2 the cost.

Example would be the Piper Vagabond. 95 mph cruise with two people on 65 hp Continental. 4.5 gallons per hour of cheap grade car gas. Engine overhauls are $9000. New prop is $1250. Any part is a phone call away from univair or Wag aero or El Reno airparts. Decent cabin room and it does not break very often. Empty weight under 700 lbs. Granted thats no electric or radios but this is old technology we are talking about.

Easy to fly and snappy handling without being unstable. Very short airplane. I can touch the wing trailing edge and stabilizer leading edge at the same time easily. Ailerons are almost full span and it will forward slip down final so fast you get light in the seat. Really fun airplane.

One of my SP students bought one and flew it 310 hours last year. All just flying local and around the pattern. His secret. Paid $23,000 for the airplane. Comes every nice day, fills it with gas and flies till empty. sometimes more than once each day. He's having a ball.

Piper Produced and certified the Vag in 1947/48. Why can't we make a similar performing and flying airplane today priced below $45,000 That is easy to fly, Easy to get in and out of, can be left outside, starts like a car and is comfortable to sit inside with good visibility

I had hoped Cessna would do this but that did not happen.

Prototype will come when I get some other things out of the shop.

Model form first then full size proof of concept fuselage with existing wings and tail. Then a static test article and finally a complete prototype.

Then fly it 1500 hours to see what breaks. Hard use. It would take three to four years for the whole project. Should be about right to catch the LSA market coming back after the initial drop off.

My goal is something that two people with the right tooling can build 10 of from start to finish each month working standard hours.

Then scale the workforce and facility depending on orders.


The reason I don't like tube spars is the bending when maneuvering makes for heavy aileron forces. The aileron pushes the wing tip in the opposite direction causing partial aileron reversal. The ribs and strut attach fittings are drilled through the tubes, Most have ribs epoxy joined to the spar. There is the possibility of internal corrosion between tube sleeves. The tubes are also smaller height because of their location on the leading and trailing edges of most experimentals. To achieve enough strength you need to double and triple sleeve the tubes. I think a properly designed extruded spar is lighter.

I have flown hours under tube spars in the Kitfox, X air, Grumman but they never were my favorite.

Lots more time in airplanes with extruded I beam spars which I was happier with. Less wing motion, better handling, easier to inspect.
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery
Cub flyer
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Post by Cub flyer »

I'd really like to fly a Tecnam.

If I can get south I'll stop at Bay Bridge and rent one for an hour.

I'd like to fly the Sky Arrow also.

Wish I could afford the new Tecnam twin. Neat machine. Would be great for night infra red animal spotting.
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