Why there are no few rental airplanes

[Cub flyer]

Just got my insurance quote for the year. Finally I believe they have decent sport pilot coverage and hour restrictions for the airplanes I fly. The exact policy text should be coming over the fax soon.


Piper J-3 liability only $3,100.
Up from $1650 last year due to Sport pilots

Tricycle gear Piper PA-11 $40,000 hull. 2 seat. $8300

Cessna 172 $70,000 hull 4 seat $8150


So for the three airplane flight school I'm at $19,550 for insurance. Lump sum due monday.

If I add the PA-11 to help out the Cub both airplanes will around 250 hours per year. My 172 flew 213 hours so far this year I'll guess it will finish around 250 hours. . Figure $19,550 / 750 hours So I'm at $26 per fleet flight hour for insurance.

If I phase out the J-3 and fly 400 hours per year with the PA-11 it would be $8,300 + $8150 = $16,450 /650 hours = $25.30 per fleet hour


My insurance cost per hour far exceeds my fuel cost of $12.88 hr J-3, $14 per hour PA-11. 172 is more at 9 gph X 3.45= 31.05.

I'm calculating my break even costs to be

J-3 $46.40 No financing or hull insurance
Tricycle gear PA-11 $92.29 10 year financing for $40,000 and hull coverage
172 $102.85 15 year financing for $70,000 and hull coverage

This has effectively priced us out of a feasable flight school for our local income level.

Remember above costs are break even. The J-3 is the only one that does well.

Over 1/3 of the students have run out of money at the $65 per hour level with the J-3 and new SP starts have slowed since July.

The only solution is to expand the flight school into a large scale pilot mill operation and spread costs over a larger number of fleet hours. BUT to do that I need to hire more people, chase schedules, instructors. I don't want the hassles.

Add this to hangar keepers, airport liability, fire, mechanics insurance, flight instructor insurance, life insurance etc.

Anybody got any ideas, I'm all ears.

How in the world does someone run a flight school with new airplanes?

This is an existing flight school since 1946 with no claims. Type certificated airplanes. How does a new startup with SLSA get going?

I think the because of the early rash of SP accidents the new SP are paying the price. Even though most of the initial SP accidents were due to pilot error of private and higher pilots.

[Cub flyer]

Something is strange here.

When I look around the net at examples of leasebacks and airplane rental I see some listing a insurance factor per $ value of .062

For a commercial use LSA insured for $120,000 that would be $7,440

My factor for a $40,000 PA-11 is .207 or just over 20% of value.

I have not seen what the deductable limits are yet but it seems odd.

Is there something so unsafe about the PA-11 I am missing.

It is tricycle gear, stalls slow, long service history and parts are easily available, Electric start, generator, lights, has a radio. one wing fuel tank so no tank switching. Aluminum and steel airframe, fabric covered.

Unfortunatally I can't shop around to other brokers because the airplanes N numbers are used for the quote. Which locks out any other brokers.

Not like your car insurance.

[Cub flyer]

The latest AOPA mag lists bottom line 4 seaters in the:
$200,000 to $250,000 range.

For private owners annual premiums based on estimates by several companies will be $1800-$3750


Cessna 172, Piper Archer, Diamond DA-40 and Cirrus SR-20 were the models listed.


I know we are a commercial operation as a flight school but...

Is a $40,000 PA-11 that much risk to warrent over $8000 in insurance cost.


It must be something I am doing or my airport. My last insurance for the 160hp Apache from Avemco was almost $5,000 with $10,000 deductable for any gear up landings and $35,000 hull.

This was for private use. Compare to the $200,000 + airplanes above.

The other quote I had was over $6500 and this was in 2004.

Stall speed on the apache is 56 mph at gross weight. 3800 lbs. Same as my old piper colt.

[Cub flyer]

Just got the fax with latest numbers.

For no sport pilots allowed and solo after minimum 25 hours of dual students with medicals J-3 liability is

$1,688


For sport pilots to rent this airplane liability goes up to

$3,214 Are they that much more risk?

Hull on the PA-11 is 6,240 and liability is $2,083 total of $8,323

Hull on the 172 is $4900 and liability of $1650 with my old company. If I switch to the new company that allows sport pilots to rent the J-3 and PA-11 my 172 insurance jumps to $2231 and $6309 hull total of $8,540

Difference of $1990 on an airplane that the sport pilots will never sit in.

[Cub flyer]

Sorry here is the exact policy cost.

$19,987. Maybe 1-800-SAFE-AUTO works.

[CTflyer]

Cub - ask the company why the sport pilot coverage adds so much more to the cost.

I'd bet there are several folks here (like me!) who'd be interested in what the company says.

Thanks.
Tom

[leagle]

It's all about money. Eighty to $100,000 airplanes, insurance rates like these - no wonder there are so few intrepid souls willing to venture into a sport pilot school. I used to be flabbergasted that here in the Chicago area there are no sport pilot schools (at least closer than 65 miles from Chicago!) and there are many schools offering training for PPL and up - now I understand!

[CTflyer]

ya know guys - it seems the Sport Pilot idea is serving a lot more LSA manufacturers than serving aspiring pilots. Look at all the ads here for LSA planes, and all the posts here from full PPL pilots (owners? dealers?) comparing and promoting LSA aircraft.

But where are the posts from Sport Pilots?

Thousands of unrented Cessna 152s all across the country, with students learning they'll pay nearly $10,000 to get a PPL. So then they try to find "affordable flying" as a sport pilot, but learn they'll have to buy their own plane.

Something's not right here ... unless you're a dealer.

Tom

[Hydroguy2]

Our club C-150 is $31/hr wet. but most use our 172 since it's only $47. PPL in 60hrs is <$2000 C-150 or $3000 C-172. Add instructor cost of <$2000 and Private is still doable. My guess is: reasonable rates aorund here is partly why Light Sport primary training has not taken off around here. I know 2 guys who have gotten a SportPilot Cert, but they have their own LSA's. I know a few others who went Sport Pilot instead of renewing their medical. One said "why risk being denied, I only fly a Cub or Luscombe anyway".

I know a guy around here who also wanted to do LSA training in a Rans, but insurance is too high. He said even without training, his insurance has gone up significantly.

[CTflyer]

Brian - how the heck are you?

Here in southern New England there are no clubs unless you've got 100+ hours. C152 rents for $85/hr, C172 for $112/hr. CFI is $42/hr. So even with 60 hours, figure $8-10K for the PPL.

Go to any FBO in southern New England and ask about sport pilot training. Except in Danbury CT (where the single LSA rents for $119/hr) there is no sport training available - "too expensive to get insurance" or "you can't fly cross country as a sport pilot" is the FBO's answer.

Go figure.

Tom

[Hydroguy2]

Howdy Tom, I busy as ever, but it pays the bills. You still taking care of anitque planes? Wish there was a why I could help you realize your dream. It's real shame about the cost out your way. I think cost is the main hurdle to all aviation. Light sport didn't fix the money problem. Also youth of today(and many older folks, too) want instant gratification and are unwilling to spend 6months time/money to learn a hobby. It's easier to get a jetski and share it with their budddies at the lake.

Missinformed FBO's is another problem undermining LSA's. The Rotax engines get a bad rap. LSA's are viewed as a toy many places. I think the Rans has been a lot of fun. My mission flying requires something with a bit more speed and range, so I'm building an RV-7, but have done some XC's in the S-6ES.

[Cub flyer]

The Skydivers gave me a copy of their tandem and jump schoo waviers. I'll take that to be reviewed and see if there is any way with an airplane.


The cost is high but my main problem now is the hour requirement for instruction in the J-3.

250 hours total time, 100 hours tailwheel and 25 make model.

How can you instruct someone with the 250 hour requirement.

They also said I should be having everyone buy renters insurance.

My premium full coverage for the PA-11 is over 8000 and if you have 10 renters all paying $500 then they are getting $13,000 a year for one airplane with $40,000 hull.


The renters insurance does not work if the airplane does not have the coverage to begin with. I think all across the country this is being overlooked because of the way it is advertised.

Monday I am calling every operator of LSA tailwheel and old airplanes to see what info I can get. I think it will be educational.

[Rev. Ken]

here is the email and phone number of the flight school here in southern MD.
Piedmont Flight center
301-373-4505
[email protected]
He trains sport pilots in a Piper cub
Maybe he can give you some information.

Ken

[Cub flyer]

I talked with Jim at Piedmont. Nice guy. He had another broker name so I'm calling around.



I called our broker and told them I was shutting it down rather than pay those prices and live with those hour requirements.


She called and said the underwriter may have sent us a quote from the top of their head. Maybe they would reconsider if they looked at it again.

That made me more mad because I was expected to pay what was quoted. They need to pay attention to the price and hours if I'm going to pay $20,000. sheesh.

[CharlieTango]

charlie,

why not contact bob mackey, he seems quite capable and knowledgeable. if your situation can be fixed he would know how and if not he would know why.

good luck