I have talked with Bob Mackey a few times over the years. In comparing notes before this SP insurance for tailwheel was not available and he was honest enough to say my rates were close to what he could get me so I figured stay with the current broker and don't rock the boat.
For a little background we instructed with Cubs from 1946 to 1960. Then switched to a 145 hp 172 and then a Colt for a short while. Even had a Champion Lancer twin
Became a Cessna Dealer (everybody was) during the 70's and flew all 150's and 172's. Got out of instruction for a short while 1980-85. Then started up again with a Cub and Colt. Expanded to two colts, one cub and one tripacer.
Then back to one colt, one cub with a Vagabond for a year or so.
I was using a Colt and Cub together for quite a while and after 911 the rates went up a lot and obscure airplanes became hard to insure for instruction. It really started when Avemco left the Commercial market.
When SP came out we were ready with the J-3 and started SP instruction immediately. This was a tremendous surge in the Cub flying and it flies every day. After the first year during the renewal I mentioned a newer SP airplane when we considered leaseback of a new CT.
This is when the Broker informed me even though my policy states "any studen pilot or better with 25 hours make and model for N3519N" It really says no sport pilots allowed.
The language has not changed on my policy but it seems odd. Sport pilots are better than Students.
The Broker recommended buying a newer airplane and putting hull coverage on it to attract an underwriter who would also take the J-3 liabiliy insurance. They want all airplanes or none you see.
So I took a loan and purchased a really nice 2000 hour TT airframe 1979 172N with new Great plains 180 hp conversion, full king digital IFR, GPS, Autopilot. $68,500
Now with my first renewal after that purchase everything doubles. so much for that plan.
Why there are no few rental airplanes
Moderator: drseti
Seems from my calls so far there are a few methods of attack.
Assume the Student pilot or Better label on the policy includes sport pilot.
Don't call the broker because they might tell the underwriter and upset the coverage.
Actually it seems the brokers are afraid of the underwriters. They tell people to reword or change questions to keep coverage from being denied due to odd requests.
Self insure. If no loans are involved that is my preferred method also for a small airplane.
Have students buy renters insurance with credit card for accelerated training. then cancel after training is done in a few days. they seem to get most of the money back.
Flight instructiors have their own renters hull and liability policy. This came from one of my friends with a float plane school in Alaska. I don't think it will work because the Renters is to pay the deductable and also prevent the owners insurance company from subrogation to the renter. (make renter pay for airplane after the owners company has paid the owner). And additional liability.
Hold your hand on your rear. That came from the local twin school who does accellerated training with an Aztec.
New airplanes or old it appears so far unless you pay around $8000 per year to play the game you don't get insurance.
the hour requirements are all over the place.
Liability is different but with any loans involved you need hull.
Leasebacks be careful. Flying clubs and partnerships are odd also.
I'll try to get better answers over the next couple days. Nobody really seems to know what they have for sure and you need to have a claim to really know.
I was tied up today chasing the cell phone company down who is building a 199ft tower a mile off the end of our runway on top of a hill. Its up and done in one afternoon.
Assume the Student pilot or Better label on the policy includes sport pilot.
Don't call the broker because they might tell the underwriter and upset the coverage.
Actually it seems the brokers are afraid of the underwriters. They tell people to reword or change questions to keep coverage from being denied due to odd requests.
Self insure. If no loans are involved that is my preferred method also for a small airplane.
Have students buy renters insurance with credit card for accelerated training. then cancel after training is done in a few days. they seem to get most of the money back.
Flight instructiors have their own renters hull and liability policy. This came from one of my friends with a float plane school in Alaska. I don't think it will work because the Renters is to pay the deductable and also prevent the owners insurance company from subrogation to the renter. (make renter pay for airplane after the owners company has paid the owner). And additional liability.
Hold your hand on your rear. That came from the local twin school who does accellerated training with an Aztec.
New airplanes or old it appears so far unless you pay around $8000 per year to play the game you don't get insurance.
the hour requirements are all over the place.
Liability is different but with any loans involved you need hull.
Leasebacks be careful. Flying clubs and partnerships are odd also.
I'll try to get better answers over the next couple days. Nobody really seems to know what they have for sure and you need to have a claim to really know.
I was tied up today chasing the cell phone company down who is building a 199ft tower a mile off the end of our runway on top of a hill. Its up and done in one afternoon.
One other thing I have seen so far.
Most SP training centers are also dealers for Light sport airpalnes of some kind. With a steady supply of new airplanes and keeping the rental fleet for sale all the time you don't need to set aside for engine TBO or replacement parts/airframe down the road. Factor in what the devalueation of the airframe will be and go from there. Hope it sells before the model year ends or it gets high time.
Nothing wrong with that and it spreads the high use periods over a larger percentage of the fleet for a short time but they all don't get abused for multiple years.
Just a different business model than I use.
I tried being a dealer for the X-air but then decided not after I built mine and flew it. Ran back to the old Cub.
Most SP training centers are also dealers for Light sport airpalnes of some kind. With a steady supply of new airplanes and keeping the rental fleet for sale all the time you don't need to set aside for engine TBO or replacement parts/airframe down the road. Factor in what the devalueation of the airframe will be and go from there. Hope it sells before the model year ends or it gets high time.
Nothing wrong with that and it spreads the high use periods over a larger percentage of the fleet for a short time but they all don't get abused for multiple years.
Just a different business model than I use.
I tried being a dealer for the X-air but then decided not after I built mine and flew it. Ran back to the old Cub.
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery
I know flying is not well respected everywhere but I ran across this. Might be the insurance folks line of thinking also.
Wonder why no stall warning on new SLSA. Simple Cessna Pneumatic kiddie dollar store Kazoo works great. I like it better than electric.
http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?se ... e_number=1
Wonder why no stall warning on new SLSA. Simple Cessna Pneumatic kiddie dollar store Kazoo works great. I like it better than electric.
http://www.flyingmag.com/article.asp?se ... e_number=1
"Perfection is finally attained not when there is no longer anything to add but when there is no longer anything to take away." Antoine de Saint Exupery
-
CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
Talk to Denise Porter at Aviation West 760-727-7444. We have 5 (now 6) LSAs on the flight line. We have had no trouble getting insurance and do not have those minimum flight requirements. I went to several companys and brokers before I found Denise. She has been excellent and is first class when it comes to getting you insurance.
question
I guess my main question comes down to:
If an airplane has no insurance at all. No liability and no hull.
The renter pilot purchases a renters policy for liability insurance. Is the renter pilot covered for liability?
Nobody can give me a straight answer on this so far.
If an airplane has no insurance at all. No liability and no hull.
The renter pilot purchases a renters policy for liability insurance. Is the renter pilot covered for liability?
Nobody can give me a straight answer on this so far.
-
Jeff Tipton
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:23 pm
- Location: Dickson, TN
From an FBO stand point the main item I would be concerned with running with no insurance on the aircraft and the student/pilot having renters insurance, would be if the aircrafdt is involved in an accident the FBO would have no insurance coverage in regards to lawsuits that may develope from an accident.
If the FBO is not a named insured on the aircraft, then it runs the risk of being sued for negligent maintenance of the aircraft with no insurance to pay for the cost of defense or the possible judgment.
If a renter crashes an airplane with liability insurance, they are only liable for their negligence. If there was no negligence, they are not liable. However, if you have hull coverage, that is coverage for damage regardless of negligence.
You could get away with having renters have enough Hull coverage with a liability coverage of $1 mil but that would not cover the FBO/Flight School for its actions, i.e. negligent instruction, negligent entrustment, negligent maintenance, etc. etc.
Also, if you are not a named insured, you may not get cost of defense and may have difficulty making a claim for money.
If a renter crashes an airplane with liability insurance, they are only liable for their negligence. If there was no negligence, they are not liable. However, if you have hull coverage, that is coverage for damage regardless of negligence.
You could get away with having renters have enough Hull coverage with a liability coverage of $1 mil but that would not cover the FBO/Flight School for its actions, i.e. negligent instruction, negligent entrustment, negligent maintenance, etc. etc.
Also, if you are not a named insured, you may not get cost of defense and may have difficulty making a claim for money.
Insurance companies have been moving this way for a long time. They do not like tail wheels and low time pilots at the same time.
Also, as planes get to a certain low price value, the insurance can also go up because the cost of a less than total plane to be fixed costs about the same no matter what it's value is.
I would be surprised to see anyone get less than $2,000 on a 200,000 plus plane.
My insurance went up last year for no reason. I am selling. What really aggravates me is that they ask questions and then will not tell you how that affects your coverage.
It seems to me that this is just plain murder. Here is why. They wanted to know things about how often I flew, etc. Then they give me the quote. If they adjusted my rate based on their risk, then that's MY RISK OF DYING they are measuring. If they know that I am less likely to die if I fly this often, or this far, or whatever, THEY HAD BETTER TELL ME!
I wish I could remember the question. I suspect that it's BS, but I can't argue if they won't tell me what they think they know.
Also, as planes get to a certain low price value, the insurance can also go up because the cost of a less than total plane to be fixed costs about the same no matter what it's value is.
I would be surprised to see anyone get less than $2,000 on a 200,000 plus plane.
My insurance went up last year for no reason. I am selling. What really aggravates me is that they ask questions and then will not tell you how that affects your coverage.
It seems to me that this is just plain murder. Here is why. They wanted to know things about how often I flew, etc. Then they give me the quote. If they adjusted my rate based on their risk, then that's MY RISK OF DYING they are measuring. If they know that I am less likely to die if I fly this often, or this far, or whatever, THEY HAD BETTER TELL ME!
I wish I could remember the question. I suspect that it's BS, but I can't argue if they won't tell me what they think they know.
Mooniac: "My insurance went up last year for no reason. I am selling."
Please don't tell us that you're selling because your insurance went up. Man - that's totally rotten that you've been hit so hard. To be able to own a plane, to be able to fly when you want, and have to give it up due to insurance costs?
Argh.
Tom
Please don't tell us that you're selling because your insurance went up. Man - that's totally rotten that you've been hit so hard. To be able to own a plane, to be able to fly when you want, and have to give it up due to insurance costs?
Argh.
Tom
I can't say that my insurance is really the reason I am selling. It's just the latest final straw. The tax changes two years ago are the primary reason for my costs to go up while my use of the plane goes down. Once again, in an attempt to nail the rich CEO's the little guy gets whacked. They are likely still going to play golf at the stockholders expense, but I now can't use my plane for anything but business and training flights.
I suspect that I will later buy a really light plane, and possibly buy liability only. If I were still doing 150 hours a year for business, I would keep my Mooney, but as my business needs dropped, the taxman is keeping me from doing enough training to keep up with being really proficient IFR wise.
That means that I fly even less for business, and then can fly even less for training and maintenance. It's a vicious cycle. Add to that the insane leap in costs for hangars at the local airport due to increased bizjets and bulldozing of the older GA hangars. I am cooked. I now drive an hour to get to my plane. Weather was sketchy this week, so I drove from Houston to San Antonio because even though it was easy IFR, I am no longer IFR current. Also, there was only an added 30 minutes time because of the airport locations. Luckily, they don't ask that on the insurance anymore, or I likely would not qualify at all.
The real problem with the insurance man is that they are destroying the industry by failing to innovate AT ALL. They are bleeding the schools who can't afford the risk of adding newer planes because if they don't fly, the school dies. You would think that if they didn't fly, there would be less risk, and a lower insurance bill, and they could all try again next month. But NOoooo. The insurance company can't handle that.
The end result is less and less pilots every year.
Sorry, if I am in rant mode, but like I said, I am cooked.
I suspect that I will later buy a really light plane, and possibly buy liability only. If I were still doing 150 hours a year for business, I would keep my Mooney, but as my business needs dropped, the taxman is keeping me from doing enough training to keep up with being really proficient IFR wise.
That means that I fly even less for business, and then can fly even less for training and maintenance. It's a vicious cycle. Add to that the insane leap in costs for hangars at the local airport due to increased bizjets and bulldozing of the older GA hangars. I am cooked. I now drive an hour to get to my plane. Weather was sketchy this week, so I drove from Houston to San Antonio because even though it was easy IFR, I am no longer IFR current. Also, there was only an added 30 minutes time because of the airport locations. Luckily, they don't ask that on the insurance anymore, or I likely would not qualify at all.
The real problem with the insurance man is that they are destroying the industry by failing to innovate AT ALL. They are bleeding the schools who can't afford the risk of adding newer planes because if they don't fly, the school dies. You would think that if they didn't fly, there would be less risk, and a lower insurance bill, and they could all try again next month. But NOoooo. The insurance company can't handle that.
The end result is less and less pilots every year.
Sorry, if I am in rant mode, but like I said, I am cooked.
I can't say that my insurance is really the reason I am selling. It's just the latest final straw. The tax changes two years ago are the primary reason for my costs to go up while my use of the plane goes down. Once again, in an attempt to nail the rich CEO's the little guy gets whacked. They are likely still going to play golf at the stockholders expense, but I now can't use my plane for anything but business and training flights.
I suspect that I will later buy a really light plane, and possibly buy liability only. If I were still doing 150 hours a year for business, I would keep my Mooney, but as my business needs dropped, the taxman is keeping me from doing enough training to keep up with being really proficient IFR wise.
That means that I fly even less for business, and then can fly even less for training and maintenance. It's a vicious cycle. Add to that the insane leap in costs for hangars at the local airport due to increased bizjets and bulldozing of the older GA hangars. I am cooked. I now drive an hour to get to my plane. Weather was sketchy this week, so I drove from Houston to San Antonio because even though it was easy IFR, I am no longer IFR current. Also, there was only an added 30 minutes time because of the airport locations. Luckily, they don't ask that on the insurance anymore, or I likely would not qualify at all.
The real problem with the insurance man is that they are destroying the industry by failing to innovate AT ALL. They are bleeding the schools who can't afford the risk of adding newer planes because if they don't fly, the school dies. You would think that if they didn't fly, there would be less risk, and a lower insurance bill, and they could all try again next month. But NOoooo. The insurance company can't handle that.
The end result is less and less pilots every year.
Sorry, if I am in rant mode, but like I said, I am cooked.
I suspect that I will later buy a really light plane, and possibly buy liability only. If I were still doing 150 hours a year for business, I would keep my Mooney, but as my business needs dropped, the taxman is keeping me from doing enough training to keep up with being really proficient IFR wise.
That means that I fly even less for business, and then can fly even less for training and maintenance. It's a vicious cycle. Add to that the insane leap in costs for hangars at the local airport due to increased bizjets and bulldozing of the older GA hangars. I am cooked. I now drive an hour to get to my plane. Weather was sketchy this week, so I drove from Houston to San Antonio because even though it was easy IFR, I am no longer IFR current. Also, there was only an added 30 minutes time because of the airport locations. Luckily, they don't ask that on the insurance anymore, or I likely would not qualify at all.
The real problem with the insurance man is that they are destroying the industry by failing to innovate AT ALL. They are bleeding the schools who can't afford the risk of adding newer planes because if they don't fly, the school dies. You would think that if they didn't fly, there would be less risk, and a lower insurance bill, and they could all try again next month. But NOoooo. The insurance company can't handle that.
The end result is less and less pilots every year.
Sorry, if I am in rant mode, but like I said, I am cooked.
Re: LSA Flight Schools/Rentals
Try Sport Pilot Chicago at Cushing field just outside of Newark Ill.I live in Chicago and its a 60 mile drive.They have 2 Thorpe T-211's and I'm taking lessons there now.leagle wrote:It's all about money. Eighty to $100,000 airplanes, insurance rates like these - no wonder there are so few intrepid souls willing to venture into a sport pilot school. I used to be flabbergasted that here in the Chicago area there are no sport pilot schools (at least closer than 65 miles from Chicago!) and there are many schools offering training for PPL and up - now I understand!