Experimental Light Sport?

pequeajim · Post by **pequeajim** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 7:38 am

I was looking at a Sonex and asked about the owner flying off the hours of the newly built aircraft along with the newly built Aerovee engine kit.

Here was his reply which confused me a bit...

FAA requires only 5 hours flight time for aircraft registered as an "LSA". If the same aircraft were registered as "Experimental" than 40 hours would be required. Also as I mentioned earlier anybody can take the 16hr course and do the annual inspections for any LSA aircraft . If this aircraft were registered as "Experimental" than only the builder/owner or an A/P mechanic could inspect it.I had a long conversation with the FAA Light Sport Division about all these issues. Being registered as an "LSA" has a lot of advantages over "Experimental". That's why I chose to register this as an "LSA". Flying off the 5 hours just makes for one really fun day.

I thought any aircraft built by an individual had to be registered as Experimental unless it was certified?

CharlieTango · Post by **CharlieTango** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:11 am

pequeajim wrote:...I thought any aircraft built by an individual had to be registered as Experimental unless it was certified?

the LSA regs created 2 new categories

1) Special Light Sport Aircraft - SLSA - factory built LSA
2) Experimental Light Sport Aircraft - ELSA - home built LSA

sonex could be registered experimental or ELSA

my ctsw could be registered SLSA, ELSA, or experimental

pequeajim · Post by **pequeajim** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:23 am

Ok, but what confuses me is the comment,

"FAA requires only 5 hours flight time for aircraft registered as an "LSA"

Only 5 hours of flight time?

AerolabNW · Post by **AerolabNW** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:23 am

I may be mistaken, but I understand that an E-LSA can only be a derivative of an S-LSA. In other words an E-LSA is a kit version of a certified a/c (S-LSA) and proof of following manufacturers assembly instructions instead of 51% is required (which can still be accomplished with a log and pictures just like ABA - Amateur Built Aircraft - Experimental).

Because the manufacturer documented the process under light sport rules, the assembler doesn’t have to meet the “51% rule” and anyone with proper training (16-hours) can perform the condition inspection. But you can’t take an ABA and license it as an E-LSA.

Our kits are currently ABA and we have to be concerned about the “51% rule”, but once the design is licensed as an S-LSA, we can produce E-LSA kits and do more of the process for the assembler.

At least that’s the way it was explained to me.

pequeajim · Post by **pequeajim** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:27 am

But I didn't know that a Sonex was a SLSA?

CharlieTango · Post by **CharlieTango** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:40 am

looks like you are right jim,

from sonex web site

=======================

Sport Pilot

How We Qualify

The sport pilot certificate allows persons to operate "light" aircraft that meet the following criteria. We've listed how the Sonex,Waiex, and Xenos meet each of these criteria below:

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1. Gross Weight: 1320 pounds or less
All Sonex, Waiex, and Xenos Models have a max gross weight of less than 1320 lbs.

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2. Vso: 45 knots or less (51 mph)
All Sonex and Waiex Models have a clean stall speed of 46 mph (40 mph flap extended stall speed). Xenos Models have a clean stall speed of 44 mph.

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3. Maximum speed in level flight with maximum continuous power (Vh) of not more than 120 kts (138 mph) CAS under standard atmospheric conditions at sea level.

Sonex, Waiex, and Xenos all meet this requirement with their standard propellers for all factory-approved engine installations.
The most common question on these speeds involves the use of the 3300 Jabiru. According to the Jabiru Factory, the maximum continuous power rating of the 3300 Jabiru is at 2750 rpm. At this rpm and under the specified conditions, the Sonex and Waiex cruise at 135 mph and the Xenos cruises at 100 mph.

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4. Unpowered or single engine-powered
Met by all Sonex Models

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5. Unpressurized
Met by all Sonex Models

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6. Two occupants or less
Met by all Sonex Models

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In conclusion, the Sonex, Waiex, and Xenos all Meet the Sport Pilot Criteria. The Sonex was designed and built in 1997 to meet the "Ultralight" and "Light Aircraft" Standards from other countries including Italy, Great Britain, Canada and Australia (just to name a few). These International Standards served as the "Blueprint" for the Sport Pilot/LSA rules.

The Sonex family of aircraft are the ideal Sport Pilot Aircraft with their simple construction, affordable price, minimal instrumentation, and large performance envelope. The Sport Pilot represents a fantastic opportunity for the Recreational Pilot to keep flying affordable and fun!

If you have any specific questions about how the Sonex fits into the Sport Pilot Category, please contact Sonex directly at:

E-Mail: [email protected]
Phone: 920-231-8297

pequeajim · Post by **pequeajim** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:46 am

Thanks for the update on the Sonex. The thing that I am still struggling with is that this guy could build the Sonex himself and then have it legal after flying off only 5 hours?

AerolabNW · Post by **AerolabNW** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:53 am

There’s a difference between licensing and operating. Any aircraft meeting the Light Sport definition may be operated in the light sport category like a Piper Cub for example, but the Piper Cub cannot be re-licensed as an S-LSA. A Fly Baby can be operated as a Light Sport (flown by a Sport Pilot) but cannot be licensed as an S-LSA because no one has taken the design through the process of being certified as a Special Light Sport Aircraft.

Sounds like the Sonex, Waiex, and Xenos meet the Sport Pilot Criteria, but may not meet the S-LSA criteria (I can’t speak for their products).

pequeajim · Post by **pequeajim** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:00 am

I think you guys are missing the original question.

My confusion does not rest in wether the Sonex is LSA compliant or not, it is.

My confusion is with the builder saying that he only needs to fly off 5 hours because the aircraft is registered as LSA?

He said that if it was registered as an experimental, it would have to fly off 40 hours, but LSA only 5?

I thought if you built it as an LSA, it really is an E-LSA?

And what is with only the 5 hours?

Is he pulling my leg?

CharlieTango · Post by **CharlieTango** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:16 am

jim,

2 possibilities,

1) your guy is confused
2) he is expecting the sonex to be LSA certified by the time he finishes his build and expects his build to qualify when sonex gets the certification.

AerolabNW · Post by **AerolabNW** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:19 am

Sorry – you’re right, I spoke about certification and operation because I’ve gone through some of that. I believe that an S-LSA needs a “factory fly off” of some sort but I don’t know how long and I could be wrong there. I’m confident that an E-LSA would also require some flight time to prove it’s airworthiness but since I haven’t gotten to that stage yet, I don’t know what that would be. It will be in the FARs though.

CharlieTango · Post by **CharlieTango** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:04 pm

i bought my ctsw with 6 hours on it.

first they get test flown in ukrain or germany then shipped to the us and arrive with a couple hours on the hobbs.

after final assembly in the us they get test flown again and their faa certification.

there was one at my hangar last week with 3 hours on it.

no factory fly off, but some test flying at assembly, perhaps some test flying when/if avionics are added and perhaps another small block of time goes on when it gets delivered.

artp · Post by **artp** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:18 pm

I am pretty sure that if you build your own plane (non LSA) you can't fly over congested areas and I suspect there are some other restrictions. These restrictions can be waived after a period of successful flights (40 hrs?). I think what we are hearing is that only 5 hours are required to meet the requirements for a home built LSA to prove itself airworthy.

AerolabNW · Post by **AerolabNW** » Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:29 pm

I’m confident that after building an ABA (Amateur Built Aircraft or Experimental) you will be restricted to a Phase-I flight test area (avoiding congested areas) determined by the DAR (Designated Airworthiness Representative – the guy that hands you your airworthiness certificate) for 40 hours if either the engine or propeller is non-certified. If the engine/propeller combination is certified (used on a certified aircraft) you’ll be restricted to 25 hours before being able to leave the Phase-I flight test area.

I don’t know what the requirements are for an E-LSA.

CharlieTango · Post by **CharlieTango** » Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:38 pm

AerolabNW wrote:I may be mistaken, but I understand that an E-LSA can only be a derivative of an S-LSA. In other words an E-LSA is a kit version of a certified a/c (S-LSA) and proof of following manufacturers assembly instructions instead of 51% is required (which can still be accomplished with a log and pictures just like ABA - Amateur Built Aircraft - Experimental).

Because the manufacturer documented the process under light sport rules, the assembler doesn’t have to meet the “51% rule” and anyone with proper training (16-hours) can perform the condition inspection. But you can’t take an ABA and license it as an E-LSA.

Our kits are currently ABA and we have to be concerned about the “51% rule”, but once the design is licensed as an S-LSA, we can produce E-LSA kits and do more of the process for the assembler.

At least that’s the way it was explained to me.

looks like not only sonex but texas sport sell that you can build their ckits as ELSA. http://www.txsport.aero/faq.asp

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