Light sport dying?

[jetcat3]

Hottest thing around on YouTube perhaps - It is still a plane that goes 90 mph max and is a taildragger - the taildragger part being the main problem here, both in terms of additional skills required and risk ( which in turn translates into insurance cost etc )[/quote]

See that’s just it, YouTube is a great indicator of where GA’s focus is turning. Because there are so many quality content creators out there they have drawn many other would be non backcountry aircraft buyers and converted them over. This former F-15 pilot is just one example. https://youtu.be/ha91HTXAPZU

I can’t tell you how many Captains I fly with who bring up their desire to buy a Kitfox or similar type aircraft after watching Trent’s videos.

The Norden cruises at 125 mph with 29” tires. That’s almost as fast as a Bristell with a 912 iS and yet it can land within 50ft. It stalls at 28 mph and climbs at 1,800ft per minute. Those are amazing numbers and you have to applaud the work Zlin has done no matter what type of specific aviation interest you have.

With a wing that’s spin resistant, slats on demand, and a parachute there’s a lot of safety with this aircraft. It’s low 36 mph approach speed means less energy to dissipate which should translate to safer tailwheel landings.

They’ve already sold 39 of them in 16 countries. I don’t see why an any American buyer would even look at a Carbon Cub as the Norden outclasses it in almost every way at a much reduced price. The Norden’s all aluminum wing puts the Carbon Cub (Super Cub) wing to shame. Not to mention the 915 iS up front.

I don’t care if you’re into backcountry or not, but you can at least appreciate innovation no matter the source and for a company focusing on producing safe single engine aircraft.

[Warmi]

I do appreciate the fact that they are offering a new plane with Rotax 915is and modern avionics for less than most LSAs base models with 912ULS.

That’s actually pretty amazing but what I think works against them , as compared to Kitfox or modern Cubs , is the simple fact of having to choose between well known and local manufacturers vs relatively unknown , small company located in a small country on the other side of the world.

[chicagorandy]

I accept that I will never be in a position to afford any of the "affordable" LSA new aircraft. Further complicated by the Norden having a 'useful' load with full tanks running from 360-300-248# depending on tank choice. Not exactly 'abundant' cargo capacity for a two-seater?......as if I'm ever gonna weigh 175 pounds or less anytime soon - lol

It does sound like it would make a nice solo aircraft for those with the requisite wallet.

[JimParker256]

.... the Norden is the ultimate in its class. If you can’t get excited about electric retractable slats something is wrong.

....It doesn't really fit the traveling LSA model, so like I said limited market. I think that market is pretty well covered here on the forum. You are head over heals, a couple think it is cool, but not cool enough to get really excited, and most are like "uh okay".

Well, I'm somewhat excited about the Norden, but then again I was truly "on fire" for the BD-5 when it was announced. As a pre-teen, I actually saved up enough money to put a deposit down on a kit - a herculean task when mowing a lawn got you $2... And we all know how the BD-5 saga turned out!

I've learned to temper my excitement whenever a company announces a new airplane that will do X, Y, and Z for a price of only (fill in the blank)... So far, the Norden appears to be delivering on the performance side of the equation, but I remain skeptical they can meet their target price. But trust me, if they are able to come through at the price point they are talking about, they will sell as many kits as they can manufacure! (One of them could well find its way into my hangar!)

PS – How would one define a "traveling LSA" anyway? To me, it has a LOT more to do with creature comfort than it does cruise speed. Mooney's are fast, but I'm so cramped in them that I become claustrophobic. An hour feels like a week. Traveling in a Mooney would be worse than flying coach in the airlines. The Rockwell Commander, by contrast, flies at about 80% the Mooney's speed, but is as comfortable as my favorite chair at home. Spending 8 hours a day in that airplane was not only doable, but I did it several times.

My RANS S-6ES cruises at "only" 110 mph, with full fuel (20.5 usable gallons) and another 447 lbs of people and cargo. That's roughly 300 mile legs (with plenty of reserve), and the seats are plenty comfortable for 3+ hours at a time – good enough for back-to-back 3-hour legs. I flew it from the Salt Lake City area to the Dallas area, and it was a fun, exciting flight.

The Norden should be at least as fast (120 mph cruise), despite its STOL capabilities and larger baggage area/capacity. Assuming the seats are decent, why wouldn't it be as much of a "traveling LSA" as any other?

[Hambone]

Speaking of which, Ham, did you contact Bob up here?

I did. I’m holding off until I decide whether or not to move overseas.

Thanks again for the contact!

[jetcat3]

.... the Norden is the ultimate in its class. If you can’t get excited about electric retractable slats something is wrong.

....It doesn't really fit the traveling LSA model, so like I said limited market. I think that market is pretty well covered here on the forum. You are head over heals, a couple think it is cool, but not cool enough to get really excited, and most are like "uh okay".

Well, I'm somewhat excited about the Norden, but then again I was truly "on fire" for the BD-5 when it was announced. As a pre-teen, I actually saved up enough money to put a deposit down on a kit - a herculean task when mowing a lawn got you $2... And we all know how the BD-5 saga turned out!

I've learned to temper my excitement whenever a company announces a new airplane that will do X, Y, and Z for a price of only (fill in the blank)... So far, the Norden appears to be delivering on the performance side of the equation, but I remain skeptical they can meet their target price. But trust me, if they are able to come through at the price point they are talking about, they will sell as many kits as they can manufacure! (One of them could well find its way into my hangar!)

PS – How would one define a "traveling LSA" anyway? To me, it has a LOT more to do with creature comfort than it does cruise speed. Mooney's are fast, but I'm so cramped in them that I become claustrophobic. An hour feels like a week. Traveling in a Mooney would be worse than flying coach in the airlines. The Rockwell Commander, by contrast, flies at about 80% the Mooney's speed, but is as comfortable as my favorite chair at home. Spending 8 hours a day in that airplane was not only doable, but I did it several times.

My RANS S-6ES cruises at "only" 110 mph, with full fuel (20.5 usable gallons) and another 447 lbs of people and cargo. That's roughly 300 mile legs (with plenty of reserve), and the seats are plenty comfortable for 3+ hours at a time – good enough for back-to-back 3-hour legs. I flew it from the Salt Lake City area to the Dallas area, and it was a fun, exciting flight.

The Norden should be at least as fast (120 mph cruise), despite its STOL capabilities and larger baggage area/capacity. Assuming the seats are decent, why wouldn't it be as much of a "traveling LSA" as any other?

Good comments all. There’s no question what is hurting them the most is that they aren’t manufactured here. There’s a very small percentage of the STOL marketplace that is even aware of Zlin in this sector and who don’t even know the Norden exists. With some well made videos produced here that could change drastically. Like Jim said, they could receive more orders than they’d know what to do with!

The empty weight is fairly low at around 840 pounds empty with a 914 and most options. The useful load is better than a lot of SLSA’s that I can think of.

Jim, I understand where you’re coming from, but from what I’ve seen and read I don’t think I’ll be disappointed when I’m able to gets hands on and fly one.

As far as the pricing goes, the base pricing from the factory is locked in and those prices are so refreshing as more and more manufacturers are greatly raising their prices. Pricing is not a concern this time around, at least for purchasing the three different base models with the 912 ULS, 914 UL, and 915 iS. Prices start at 108,449 Euros for the 912 ULS which is insanely cheap!

Performance numbers with a 4 blade ground adjustable E-prop and 22” tires shows 128 mph true airspeed at 2,500ft at 1,135 pounds aircraft weight with 5,500 rpm. This is of course with the 915 up front. Pull it back to 5,200 rpm and you’re true airspeed is 120 mph at 6.6 GPH. Climb rate at 5450 rpm is showing 1,900ft per minute! Stall test power off with slats and flaps deployed is 28 mph. These are pretty remarkable numbers for an airplane that can pull up in 50ft haha.

[FastEddieB]

Sounds like a great plane, but...

The empty weight is fairly low at around 840 pounds empty with a 914 and most options. The useful load is better than a lot of SLSA’s that I can think of.

840 pounds empty weight is at the very high end of Light Sport empty weights I’ve seen. I think they top out in that vicinity due to a formula for minimum Light Sport useful load.

[jetcat3]

Sounds like a great plane, but...

The empty weight is fairly low at around 840 pounds empty with a 914 and most options. The useful load is better than a lot of SLSA’s that I can think of.

840 pounds empty weight is at the very high end of Light Sport empty weights I’ve seen. I think they top out in that vicinity due to a formula for minimum Light Sport useful load.

They are many much heavier than this. The newer 912 ULS SportCruisers weigh 890 pounds, the Sling 2 is right around there as well with the 912 iS, Tecnam P2008 with a 914 at 906 pounds, S-21 tundra tike with 912 ULS at 870 pounds, and a recently delivered 915 RANS S-21 tundra trike hit 950 pounds empty. We all know the Carbon Cubs and Legend Cubs are well above 900 pounds when equipped with Airstreak tires even approaching 1,000 pounds empty in some cases! I’d say the Norden is in a pretty good place weight wise.

[jetcat3]

Sounds like a great plane, but...

The empty weight is fairly low at around 840 pounds empty with a 914 and most options. The useful load is better than a lot of SLSA’s that I can think of.

840 pounds empty weight is at the very high end of Light Sport empty weights I’ve seen. I think they top out in that vicinity due to a formula for minimum Light Sport useful load.

There are many much heavier than this. The newer 912 ULS SportCruisers weigh 890 pounds, the Sling 2 is right around there as well with the 912 iS, Tecnam P2008 with a 914 at 906 pounds, S-21 tundra tike with 912 ULS at 870 pounds, and a recently delivered 915 RANS S-21 tundra trike hit 950 pounds empty. We all know the Carbon Cubs and Legend Cubs are well above 900 pounds when equipped with Airstreak tires even approaching 1,000 pounds empty in some cases! I’d say the Norden is in a pretty good place weight wise.

[Warmi]

Personally , after doing taildragger endorsement for fun, I am still not a big fan of taildraggers ... to me it is just added complexity with no clear benefit , especially in places like IL - my plane already lands at 35-40 knots so it is already pretty safe to put it down in tight places.

Additionally, I hope that the new Norden is much more ergonomic than their old design because their old model (circa 2008) was just awful in terms of creature comforts.

Compared to my Sting it was :
- cramped and not very ergonomic in terms of basic comforts as well as positioning of controls. I had to constantly switch hands and overall “work hard” to just fly that thing while in my Sting it is more like sitting in a recliner with every control instantly available without any additional effort.
- very mushy handling. Compared to crisp handling in my Sting it was like everything was happening in slow motion.

I realize that I was flying a pretty beat up older trainer but still , I could not point to anything that plane did better than my Sting and flying it felt like a chore rather than a pleasure.
Of course some of it was simply due to me being new to the plane but then again, when I had my first demo flight on a Sting , it was very much new plane to me but I instantly knew that I wanted to fly it going forward compared to the Remos plane I did my initial training in.

I guess what I am trying to say is that flying taildraggers is an acquired taste - quite a few people , like me, just won’t get it and that alone limits the market ...

[FastEddieB]

They are many much heavier than this. The newer 912 ULS SportCruisers weigh 890 pounds, the Sling 2 is right around there as well with the 912 iS, Tecnam P2008 with a 914 at 906 pounds, S-21 tundra tike with 912 ULS at 870 pounds, and a recently delivered 915 RANS S-21 tundra trike hit 950 pounds empty. We all know the Carbon Cubs and Legend Cubs are well above 900 pounds when equipped with Airstreak tires even approaching 1,000 pounds empty in some cases! I’d say the Norden is in a pretty good place weight wise.

I found the source I was referring to:



I thought my plane was porky at about 855 lbs empty. Even with just 18 gals max fuel, I still have to be careful with passenger/baggage loading to stay under 1,320 lbs.

[3Dreaming]

I'm not certain, but I think that formula may have changed in 2010. Also with the old formula I believe it was based on max continuous power, so the Rotax 912 ULS would actually be 93 HP for the formula.

[FastEddieB]

If it did change, I’d like to see the new formula if anyone has it.

[drseti]

If it did change, I’d like to see the new formula if anyone has it.

The latest formula I have is:

Minimum useful load = 190 pounds times the number of seats, plus the weight of fuel for one hour of flight at maximum continuous power.

For a Rotax 912ULS, maximum continuous power is 5500 RPM. Since I burn 5 GPH in economy cruise, let's cautiously assume 7 GPH at max cruise. That adds 42 pounds of fuel to the 380 pounds for two seats, giving us a minimum useful load of 422 pounds. At 1320 pounds max gross, maximum empty weight becomes (1320 - 422) or 898 pounds.

Of course, with only one hour of fuel at max cruise, given the day vfr reserve requirement of 30 minutes, the formula assumes you're going to be flying 30 minute legs!

[chicagorandy]

"Of course, with only one hour of fuel at max cruise, given the day vfr reserve requirement of 30 minutes, the formula assumes you're going to be flying 30 minute legs!"

So... realistically, many new LSAs make terrific Light Sport single seaters?