FAA Action Against Sensenich

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MrMorden
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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby MrMorden » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:18 am

TimTaylor wrote:In the case of Sensenich, the spin-off would be worth far more with the Sensenich name versus without the name. I don't have any idea who Sensenich partners with to do their prop maintenance and/or restoration, but I assume it is quite likely the new spin-off continued to be a supplier of services to Sensenich. If so, any work done within this time period of 2015 - 2017 will be subject to recall, I suspect.


Exactly. The "that's a different company" line rings a little hollow without some more info on what the current relationship is between the two companies. I *hope* this turns out to be a non-issue for owners, but right now we just don't have enough information to say one way or another.
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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby dstclair » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:58 am

Andy -- would you be less concerned if the propeller service spinoff would've been named 'Bob's Prop Shop'?
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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby drseti » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:11 am

dstclair wrote:Andy -- would you be less concerned if the propeller service spinoff would've been named 'Bob's Prop Shop'?


That would sure make it easier to hang Bob out to dry
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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby MrMorden » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:03 am

dstclair wrote:Andy -- would you be less concerned if the propeller service spinoff would've been named 'Bob's Prop Shop'?


I don't give a shit about the name. I care what their maintenance relationship is with the company that makes the props, which is still unclear.
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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:06 am

If I were a betting man I would wager that the 47 propellers in question are not even Sensenich propellers.

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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:09 am

MrMorden wrote:
dstclair wrote:Andy -- would you be less concerned if the propeller service spinoff would've been named 'Bob's Prop Shop'?


I don't give a shit about the name. I care what their maintenance relationship is with the company that makes the props, which is still unclear.


They are just like any other propeller repair stations that are authorized to service Sensenich propellers. They also service other brands of propellers.

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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby MrMorden » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:36 am

3Dreaming wrote:
MrMorden wrote:
dstclair wrote:Andy -- would you be less concerned if the propeller service spinoff would've been named 'Bob's Prop Shop'?


I don't give a shit about the name. I care what their maintenance relationship is with the company that makes the props, which is still unclear.


They are just like any other propeller repair stations that are authorized to service Sensenich propellers. They also service other brands of propellers.


Of course. But what percentage of Sensenich props did the factory refer there for service? 0%? 10%? 90%? We don't know. If anybody knows this answer, they have so far not said it. Just stating they are an independent company means nothing, especially when they share common history and a name with the manufacturer.

If GMAC financing was found to be defrauding customers, and GM said "hey, that's not us, it's a totally separate company"...people would laugh. That is the financing arm of GM, and their preferred finance company. Is this the preferred overhaul/repair company for Sensenich, for some or all types of props? Do they do any work at all for them? That has not been addressed.
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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:45 am

It really doesn't matter that the shop once belonged to Sensenich. They are now, and have been for years, an independent company. Their business practices for the period 2015 - 2017 are in question. Any services they provided to any aircraft propeller during that time period is subject to recall. If you think your propeller may have been serviced by them, look at the records to find out. Otherwise, you will probably find out soon enough.
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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Aug 28, 2018 12:22 pm

MrMorden wrote:
3Dreaming wrote:
MrMorden wrote:
I don't give a shit about the name. I care what their maintenance relationship is with the company that makes the props, which is still unclear.


They are just like any other propeller repair stations that are authorized to service Sensenich propellers. They also service other brands of propellers.


Of course. But what percentage of Sensenich props did the factory refer there for service? 0%? 10%? 90%? We don't know. If anybody knows this answer, they have so far not said it. Just stating they are an independent company means nothing, especially when they share common history and a name with the manufacturer.

If GMAC financing was found to be defrauding customers, and GM said "hey, that's not us, it's a totally separate company"...people would laugh. That is the financing arm of GM, and their preferred finance company. Is this the preferred overhaul/repair company for Sensenich, for some or all types of props? Do they do any work at all for them? That has not been addressed.


I'm not sure why you are trying to make something out of nothing. If a Chevrolet service center was found to be installing counterfeit parts would it be Chevrolets fault because they listed them as a place to get service? They both have Chevrolet in their names.

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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby MrMorden » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:30 pm

3Dreaming wrote:I'm not sure why you are trying to make something out of nothing. If a Chevrolet service center was found to be installing counterfeit parts would it be Chevrolets fault because they listed them as a place to get service? They both have Chevrolet in their names.


I have no idea why you are trying to make this into nothing when we don't know if it's nothing or not.

I'm not saying there is a huge problem here, or that there's not. I'm saying Sensenich's statement on this leaves more questions than answers. If you can answer the following questions I'll shut up, but so far nobody has:

1) What was the business relationship between this repair station and Sensenich Propellers at the time of this FAA action?

2) What volume and what type of propeller work was referred by Sensenich Propeller and performed at this repair shop?

3) What are going to be the implications of this action for warranty, overhaul, and repair services going forward, and will this change who performs the work?

I don't know the answers to those questions, and neither do you, because Sensenich has not provided that information. I'm pretty shocked that folks here just want to put their fingers in their ears and assume there's nothing to worry about because Sensenich said so in a vague statement. At least I'm asking the questions.
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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Aug 28, 2018 1:36 pm

I agree we don't know the answer to your questions #1 and #2, but why do we care? All that really matters is the prop on your aircraft.

I'm sure the answer to #3 is that Sensenich, the real company, will stand behind any warranty you received from them regardless of who they used to do the actual work.

As far as the future, there is always a risk of doing business with anyone or any company. What is different now in this situation? Nothing.
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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:37 pm

1. It was an independent repair station authorized to make repairs to Sensenich propellers, just like the other 25 Sensenich approved independent authorized repair stations here in the USA. Like all the other repair stations they were also authorized to do repair work on other manufactures propellers.

2. I don't know if you can really call it a referral, but I suspect that the facility was listed along with the 25 remaining facilities on the Sensenich.com website as an approved repair center. The Connecticut facility is no longer listed on their website.

3. One of the other 25 remaining repair centers will be able to perform maintenance and warranty work on Sensenich propellers, including the other two Sensenich Propeller Service, Inc. locations as indicated by the FAA's press release.

Again I would be willing to bet that the 47 propellers in question were not even Sensenich propellers.

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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby Andrew G » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:23 am

This horse is just about dead :D

I come from the aerospace manufacturing industry... recently retired. There are two types of shops... manufacturers of product (the Sensenich Prop Co) and the repair shops (the guy in CT). Operationally, they are completely different. One group makes Parts and ships them to airframers (Cessna, Piper, Cub Crafters, etc.) and the other group takes in business from "retail" customers -- the flying public, as the A&P's dictate during Annuals. Oftentimes the manufacturer and the repair shop are one in the same, like Continental and Lycoming which will make your engine and reburb it as well.

Repair shops are formerly approved by the company making the Parts... in this case Sensenich... the 3rd party repair shops have to strictly comply with a Quality System approved by Sensenich. Quality System adherence adds a lot of cost to the repair process, i.e. the time and overhead checking and rechecking the prop as it makes its way through the repair/checking process.

The prop repair shop in CT allegedly was NOT following the Prop Makers' "approved" Quality Systems. Sadly, this happens when owners are stretched for cash, or key personnel quit, or good old greed, and they will bypass critical Parts checks and or repairs and yet charge the customer as if they are making the critical checks and repairs outlined in their OEM-approved Quality System.

In my professional opinion, Sense sold the shop and licensed their good name to the CT Shop Buyer many moons ago. The Buyer paid more for the privilege of using the Sense name. There probably was an ongoing repair relationship whereby the CT shop was allowed the privilege to repair Sense props as long as an approved Quality System was in force in CT. I am sure the Sense company is scrambling to figure out which props were "repaired and checked" by the CT shop... and Sense most likely has the right to enter the CT shop to inspect records, etc. The FAA is now in control (good) and reconciling the who-has-what-prop program right now. It is a major mess for obvious reasons. When a shop discontinues using a Quality System (oftentimes "fibs" i.e. checks the checkboxes without performing the work called out in the Quality System), the CT shop owners are in deep prop prop.

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Re: FAA Action Against Sensenich

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:19 am

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/F ... 418-1.html

Andy, this should clear things up a little. They provide the specific issue that caused the violation. It has to do with testing of a spring. Sensenich propeller has never produced a propeller with a spring, so none of the propellers in question were Sensenich propellers.


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