ADSB-B in and out

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drseti
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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby drseti » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:17 am

ShawnM wrote:
traffic with no transponder will show up on my ADS-B IF they are flying within ground radar coverage. Any aircraft that can be picked up by the ground based radar will be rebroadcast to ADS-B towers and sent up to me. Transponder or not. That is ONLY if they are within radar coverage.



This is generally true, Shawn, with three caveats:

(1) fewer and fewer radar sites have primary (purely reflective) radar capabilities. Just because that Cub, Champ, Luscomb, or T-Craft is flying near a radar station doesn't mean it's being painted.

(2) Even if it's being picked up by radar, that aircraft will reveal only its (relative) position, and not its altitude.

(3) Even within a Mode C veil, and even after 2020, you can still encounter NORDO aircraft if they got their clearances by telephone prior to takeoff.

So, the general rule is, whenever flying in VMC, you must use the two low-tech collision avoidance devices the Creator issued to you at birth.
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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:43 am

drseti wrote:
(3) Even within a Mode C veil, and even after 2020, you can still encounter NORDO aircraft if they got their clearances by telephone prior to takeoff.

So, the general rule is, whenever flying in VMC, you must use the two low-tech collision avoidance devices the Creator issued to you at birth.


I don't see a requirement for receiving a clearance by telephone or any other method in the regulations for operating within the mode C veil without ADS-B out after 01/01/2020 for aircraft originally certified without an electrical system, or has not had one subsequently installed.

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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:34 pm

I guess he is saying you could call on the telephone and get a clearance to enter class C or depart class C without an electrical system. I've never seen this covered anywhere, but is probably possible if the local ATC is willing to give you the clearance.
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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby ShawnM » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:53 pm

drseti wrote:So, the general rule is, whenever flying in VMC, you must use the two low-tech collision avoidance devices the Creator issued to you at birth.


I couldn't agree more, I still use those low tech devices on every flight. My Aera 660 is my backup. :mrgreen:

As for those NORDO traffic encounters, who flies around these days WITHOUT a radio? :shock: Probably those same people with a flip phone. :mrgreen:

In my opinion that's just plain STUPID, not to mention unsafe.

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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby MrMorden » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:14 pm

ShawnM wrote:
drseti wrote:So, the general rule is, whenever flying in VMC, you must use the two low-tech collision avoidance devices the Creator issued to you at birth.


I couldn't agree more, I still use those low tech devices on every flight. My Aera 660 is my backup. :mrgreen:

As for those NORDO traffic encounters, who flies around these days WITHOUT a radio? :shock: Probably those same people with a flip phone. :mrgreen:

In my opinion that's just plain STUPID, not to mention unsafe.


Happens all the time in my local area, just outside the Atlanta Mode C veil. I think it's occurring a lot more than you think. Old airplanes, ultralight pilots, powered parachutes... Remember also that pilots have a blanket FCC waiver and thus don't require a broadcast license. I'm not even sure it's legal for non-certificated pilots to transmit on the radio.

I don't think it's unsafe as long as all pilots continue to look, and the NORDO pilot uses common sense and an abundance of discretion.
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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby drseti » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:32 pm

TimTaylor wrote:I guess he is saying you could call on the telephone and get a clearance to enter class C or depart class C without an electrical system.


Exactly! That's even permitted in Class B (though I know of few who would attempt it!)
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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:37 pm

I don't think there is anything inherently unsafe about flying without an electrical system or radio. Just make sure you only fly in very good VFR weather with good visibility and keep your scan up and stay away from busy airports and airspace.
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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:50 pm

drseti wrote:
TimTaylor wrote:I guess he is saying you could call on the telephone and get a clearance to enter class C or depart class C without an electrical system.


Exactly! That's even permitted in Class B (though I know of few who would attempt it!)


To me the mode C veil is the 30 nm circle around a class B airport. I guess I think that because, that is what it is called. And yes non electrical airplanes can request a deviation from the ADS-B requirement, just like a transponder, in airspace where it is required not covered by the regulatory exemption.

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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:57 pm

ShawnM wrote:
drseti wrote:So, the general rule is, whenever flying in VMC, you must use the two low-tech collision avoidance devices the Creator issued to you at birth.


I couldn't agree more, I still use those low tech devices on every flight. My Aera 660 is my backup. :mrgreen:

As for those NORDO traffic encounters, who flies around these days WITHOUT a radio? :shock: Probably those same people with a flip phone. :mrgreen:

In my opinion that's just plain STUPID, not to mention unsafe.


I think Paul is using NORDO to mean an airplane without an electrical system, rather than not having a radio.

I fly quite a bit in non electrical airplanes. I do use a handheld radio. I have had my battery die before, and I have had the radio wind up on the wrong frequency. the same can and does happen to those airplanes that do have electrical systems.

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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby ShawnM » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:21 pm

3Dreaming wrote:I think Paul is using NORDO to mean an airplane without an electrical system, rather than not having a radio.

I fly quite a bit in non electrical airplanes. I do use a handheld radio. I have had my battery die before, and I have had the radio wind up on the wrong frequency. the same can and does happen to those airplanes that do have electrical systems.


I understood that also. Hopefully they carry a handheld radio. My point was flying without a radio TODAY is just "plane" crazy. There is no reason for it.

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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:27 pm

You can safely fly without a radio. Stay away from busy airports, fly in great VFR weather, and keep your eyes out for traffic. Other than departing and arriving at an airport, who are you going to talk to anyway? If it's a small airport with little or no traffic, you can follow the normal airport traffic procedures and remain safe. If it wasn't safe, radios would be required. Let's not over complicate things. I have almost 60 hours in a J3 without a radio. It's not a problem.
Last edited by TimTaylor on Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby drseti » Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:29 pm

3Dreaming wrote:I think Paul is using NORDO to mean an airplane without an electrical system, rather than not having a radio.


Exactly, Tom. I guess I'm going to have to invent a new contraction. How about NOELECT?
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby Warmi » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:06 pm

TimTaylor wrote:You can safely fly without a radio. Stay away from busy airports, fly in great VFR weather, and keep your eyes out for traffic. Other than departing and arriving at an airport, who are you going to talk to anyway? If it's a small airport with little or no traffic, you can follow the normal airport traffic procedures and remain safe. If it wasn't safe, radios would be required. Let's not over complicate things. I have almost 60 hours in a J3 without a radio. It's not a problem.

Radios are just another layer of safety , which by itself doesn’t t guarantee anything but layer enough of them and you will improve your chances.
In this day and age of $150 portable radios I think there is no excuse to fly without a radio.
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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby TimTaylor » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:42 pm

I disagree. I think it is perfectly acceptable and safe, given the right conditions, to fly without a radio. We will just have to disagree on this. I haven't done this is a long time except 5+ hours down at Jack Brown's seaplane base getting my Light Sport seaplane endorsement a couple years ago. Some people think there is no excuse in flying without a parachute. You could say, there is no excuse flying cross-country without an instrument rating or flying at night without an instrument rating. You can carry this logic as far as you want.
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Re: ADSB-B in and out

Postby 3Dreaming » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:07 pm

I have well over 1000 hours in airplanes without electrical systems. A good portion of that is without a radio. I think it is highly dependent on the environment in which you are flying. With some of these old airplanes the tangled mess of wire and static on the radio creates more issues than it solves. Some of these old airplane have more ignition noise than a handheld radio can handle.


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