Fatality - USSYorktown

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comperini
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby comperini » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:25 pm

Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections
- Bob
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comperini
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby comperini » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:27 pm

FastEddieB wrote:Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429


Sheesh, I was only reading the first page of that thread, when I saw Daniel's infamous words: "Its a long story and a lawsuit has been filed."

Typical!
- Bob
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Yoda
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:31 pm

drseti wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


True, Yoda. Any trained (or untrained) monkey can maintain, modify, or repair any experimental aircraft, ELSA or E-AB, whether the owner or not. The Repairman Certificate is required only for the condition inspection.

The rules are indeed confusing. Four years ago, I did an EAA Webinar on the subject. A video is on my website. Here's the link:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/LSA_maint.mp4



Okay, thanks. I've probably read it before, but right now I'm not in LSA, although I might be someday...thus the interest in LSA. Thanks for straightening me out. Also, I don't have time right now to view the webinar, but the first slide sounds like just what I need to see. I'll check it out later. Thanks for all you do in LSA and in this forum.
Last edited by Yoda on Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:33 pm

comperini wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections



Okay, thanks.

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FastEddieB
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:01 pm

I think some of the confusion stems from the nomenclature.

In the "certified world", an AI is seen to be a higher order than an A&P, with more privileges.

But with Light Sports,...

A Light Sport Repairman-Maintenance lets its holder work on anyone's Light Sport and do annual condition inspections, even for compensation. Takes a 15 day, 120 course and costs $3,895 from Rainbow Aviation.

A Light Sport Repairman-Inspection only permits its holder to perform annual condition inspections on the one specific aircraft that he or she owns, and that aircraft is listed on the certificate:

Image

Takes a 2 day, 16 hour course, and costs $400 from Rainbow. Also available from Sport Aviation Specialties near Atlanta, and others. Focuses almost entirely on inspection procedures and legal matters, with practically nothing on actual maintenance, per sé.

Does that help?
Last edited by FastEddieB on Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yoda
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:19 pm

FastEddieB wrote:I think some of the confusion stems from the nomenclature.

In the "certified world", an AI is seen to be a higher order than an A&P, with more privileges.

But with Light Sports,...

A Light Sport Repairman-Maintenance lets its holder work on anyone's Light Sport and do annual condition inspections, even for compensation. Takes a 15 day, 120 course and costs $3,895 from Rainbow Aviation.

A Light Sport Repairman-Inspection only permits its holder to perform annual condition on the one specific aircraft that he or she owns, and that aircraft is listed on the certificate:

Image

Takes a 2 day, 16 hour course, and costs $400 from Rainbow. Also available from Sport Aviation Specialties near Atlanta, and others. Focuses almost entirely on inspection procedures and legal matters, with practically nothing on actual maintenance, per sé.

Does that help?


Yes, definitely.

I'm surprised I didn't get any agreement/disagreement or opinions about the cross country comment in my post. Probably should have made it a separate post. What's your opinion about him flying across the North American continent?

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FastEddieB
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:33 pm

Yoda wrote:I'm surprised I didn't get any agreement/disagreement or opinions about the cross country comment in my post. Probably should have made it a separate post. What's your opinion about him flying across the North American continent?


Utilizing the Principal of Charity - which I'm not sure he deserves - I'll still assume he made the flight until proven otherwise.

Its not that hard to do without talking to anyone, if you avoid certain kinds of airspace, and further don't know what you don't know. Or care.
Fast Eddie B.
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3Dreaming
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:17 pm

comperini wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections


The repairman certificate only allows the performance of condition inspections. The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection. Annual and 100hour inspections are for type certified aircraft.

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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:28 pm

FastEddieB wrote:...<SNIP>...Its not that hard to do without talking to anyone, if you avoid certain kinds of airspace, and further don't know what you don't know. Or care.


My brother once flew a Baby Ace from Idaho to Tennessee without talking to anyone on the radio. But that was 40 years ago, and I know he was more experienced than yorktown. Plus the airspace in Florida is much more involved than that in Tennessee 40 years ago. Again, it's just speculation on my part, I admit that, so maybe I should give him the benefit of the doubt. Thanks for the reply.
Last edited by Yoda on Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrMorden
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby MrMorden » Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:31 pm

3Dreaming wrote:
comperini wrote:
Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


This has nothing to do with E-LSA vs E-AB or anything else. The bottom line is that ANYPNE can perform maintenance/repair/alteration on ANY plane registered in ANY of the several Experimental categories (E-AB and E-LSA happen to be the most well known but there are like 8 different kinds of Experimental categories). A Repairman certificate on an experimental gives the hold one and one privilege only: The ability to perform the annual and 100 hr (if applicable) inspections


The repairman certificate only allows the performance of condition inspections. The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection. Annual and 100hour inspections are for type certified aircraft.


This is true. I can so a field overhaul on my engine with exactly zero training. Dumb move, but it's legal. The repairman certificate is only needed to sign off the condition inspection. This is one of the great super powers in my mind of experimental aviation -- the fact that anybody can do anything to the airplane at any time, as long as once a year somebody qualified by the FAA attests that it's in condition for safe operation. It's an amazing degree of individual freedom that doesn't exist in any other country I am aware of.
Andy Walker
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drseti
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby drseti » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:14 pm

3Dreaming wrote: The frequency of the condition inspection could be every 100 hours or annually, but it is still just a condition inspection.


Although that statement is completely true, this discussion is about experimental aircraft, so the 100 hour inspection reference is irrelevant. The 100 hour is required for commercial operations, in which experimentals are prohibited from engaging.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby drseti » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:16 pm

MrMorden wrote:I can do a field overhaul on my engine with exactly zero training.


Yes, you can, Andy (although I happen to know you're too intelligent to ever attempt that)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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WDD
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby WDD » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:25 pm

So, if anyone can do anything to their own plane, why would someone convert from a SLSA or ELSA to a EAB? I've got to be missing something.

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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby 3Dreaming » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:40 pm

WDD wrote:So, if anyone can do anything to their own plane, why would someone convert from a SLSA or ELSA to a EAB? I've got to be missing something.


You are! Anyone can only do anything to their own airplane is it has an airworthiness certificate in the Experimental category.

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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby drseti » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:44 pm

First off, anyone can do anything to an experimental. Not so for an SLSA. That's why some folks choose to convert from SLSA to ELSA.

However I know of no path for converting an SLSA to an E-AB. To be an E-AB, the aircraft must have been initially built as an experimental, and given its original airworthiness certificate that way.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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