Fatality - USSYorktown

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comperini
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby comperini » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:33 am

So I've listened to the audio of him right up to the time he called Mayday. Did the man have absolutely no clue as to how to talk to a tower, or did he have a stroke or some other medical problem that caused him to utter nonsense on the radio?
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Warmi » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:22 am

I think he was just rusty - didn't sound like somebody who lost his mind but rather like somebody who was behind.
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Half Fast
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Half Fast » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:26 am

comperini wrote:So I've listened to the audio of him right up to the time he called Mayday. Did the man have absolutely no clue as to how to talk to a tower, or did he have a stroke or some other medical problem that caused him to utter nonsense on the radio?



Considering he had just received a jail sentence a few days prior, he may have been mentally distracted.
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby comperini » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:56 am

Half Fast wrote:
comperini wrote:Considering he had just received a jail sentence a few days prior, he may have been mentally distracted.


Yea, who knows... I know he was disbarred in California. Not sure about Oregon or any other state. Sure burned a lot of bridges though. I love the video of him with Don Shipley in front of his Florida home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvUaPTBQGsA
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Half Fast
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Half Fast » Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:40 pm

comperini wrote:
Half Fast wrote:
comperini wrote:Considering he had just received a jail sentence a few days prior, he may have been mentally distracted.


Yea, who knows... I know he was disbarred in California. Not sure about Oregon or any other state. Sure burned a lot of bridges though. I love the video of him with Don Shipley in front of his Florida home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvUaPTBQGsA



He was denied admission to the Oregon bar. https://law.justia.com/cases/oregon/sup ... 44863.html "...applicant has not proved that he possesses the requisite good moral character and fitness to practice law in this state."
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Yoda » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:25 pm

Today the NTSB released their preliminary report of this accident. You may read it here.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... m&IType=FA


The first thing that stands out to me is that the last Condition Inspection was completed on July 24, 2016. The airplane was overdue on it's annual Condition Inspection by about six months.

Also, the destination was not Immokalee as someone erroneously reported in the press. This was repeated several times in different forums. It's a nit that doesn't mean much, but the initial contact with the ground controller at Page Field (KFMY) indicated his destination was Everglades Airpark (X01).

I'm thinking the overdue C.I. was typical of his other behavior patterns involving "ignoring the rules."

After reading this initial report, I am expecting the final NTSB report to include some very interesting details. Maybe/Maybe not. We'll see. Stay tuned.

P.S. The inclusion of Vic Syracuse in the investigation representing Van's Aircraft is a definite plus. He is well versed in building and flying Experimental Aircraft including several RV's. If there was anything wrong with the airplane, I believe he can find it as well as anyone. He's from the Atlanta area, even though it lists Aurora, Oregon. That just his employer's address.

P.P.S. And one more thought...the pilot was right...you won't read his name in any NTSB report. Because the NTSB doesn't show the occupants' names in the preliminary or final reports. However, we all knew what he meant and had good reasons to disagree with him.

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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:20 am

The RV-12 N262WS was built by Wes Schierman, Major, USAF (retired) as an E-LSA and was NOT factory built as some have speculated. The NTSB question “Amateur Built...No” means it was not E-AB. Also, the photo linked on POA showing Wes Schierman sitting in the plane does not have the Van’s Aircraft paint scheme for their S-LSA (factory built) airplanes.

The 750 foot impact path was most likely the distance from the first impact with tree tops until it came to rest on the ground in the wooded area. It’s hard to see how dense the trees are or what kind they are. I’m guessing sparse pine thicket about 40 feet tall max.

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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:55 am

After perusing his posts on the Vans site, there was a fair amount of discussion about cabling to the elevator. He spent time fishing a cable out of his tailcone, and even considered cutting an access hole in a bulkhead to help him reach it. Others warned him about being sure the cable runs had not been compromised, and to be sure to have a qualified mechanic involved before flying it again.

Pure speculation, but the suddenness of the emergency would be consistent with loss of pitch control or flutter*.

Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429

And another about trim issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134130

Interesting in that one he posted his issue and got 2+ pages of responses without ever acknowledging them that I can see.


* Worth pointing out that failure of a trim linkage can often have consequences far beyond loss of trim function, namely flutter, which can be destructive.
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Half Fast
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Half Fast » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:51 am

FastEddieB wrote:After perusing his posts on the Vans site, there was a fair amount of discussion about cabling to the elevator. He spent time fishing a cable out of his tailcone, and even considered cutting an access hole in a bulkhead to help him reach it. Others warned him about being sure the cable runs had not been compromised, and to be sure to have a qualified mechanic involved before flying it again.

Pure speculation, but the suddenness of the emergency would be consistent with loss of pitch control or flutter*.

Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429

And another about trim issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134130

Interesting in that one he posted his issue and got 2+ pages of responses without ever acknowledging them that I can see.


* Worth pointing out that failure of a trim linkage can often have consequences far beyond loss of trim function, namely flutter, which can be destructive.



Haven't had time to read all that yet, but I notice that the thread ended a couple of months prior to his last recorded annual. I'd be more worried if it were after the annual, but who knows what he did to the plane in the year and a half between the annual and the crash?
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:56 am

FastEddieB wrote:After perusing his posts on the Vans site, there was a fair amount of discussion about cabling to the elevator. He spent time fishing a cable out of his tailcone, and even considered cutting an access hole in a bulkhead to help him reach it. Others warned him about being sure the cable runs had not been compromised, and to be sure to have a qualified mechanic involved before flying it again.

Pure speculation, but the suddenness of the emergency would be consistent with loss of pitch control or flutter*.

Let me find that thread.

Here you go: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=135429

And another about trim issues: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=134130

Interesting in that one he posted his issue and got 2+ pages of responses without ever acknowledging them that I can see.


* Worth pointing out that failure of a trim linkage can often have consequences far beyond loss of trim function, namely flutter, which can be destructive.


Yes, I've read those threads several times. Seems like I read that he posted about getting his Repairman's Certificate (I can't find it now, if it's true), so who knows what he might have done, documented or undocumented?

Also, don't forget that the pitch trim on an RV-12, IS the PITCH CONTROL via the Stabilator, unlike the conventional Horizontal Stabilizer, Elevator and Trim Tab of most airplanes.

Flutter? Could be, and than we may never know. But I'd bet Van's either has data or will run tests to see if it was a possible cause.

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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:58 am

Half Fast wrote:...Haven't had time to read all that yet, but I notice that the thread ended a couple of months prior to his last recorded annual. I'd be more worried if it were after the annual, but who knows what he did to the plane in the year and a half between the annual and the crash?


I agree. Seems typical of his personality.

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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:07 pm

Here's another theory I have. I seem to recall yorktown saying he flew cross-country from the Northwest (Oregon or Seattle area) all the way to Ft. Myers. Then when I heard the audio tapes of his final departure from Ft. Myers (Page Field), I began to wonder how a guy could fly all the way across the country with such poor radio communication skills.

After thinking about it, I'd almost bet he removed the wings of the RV-12 and towed it cross country and then re-assembled it in Florida. It is possible to fly cross country without talking on the radio, but I sure wouldn't want to do it, especially through the very busy airspace of Central Florida.

I wonder if any witnesses to his initial arrival in Florida are willing to step forward and vouch for how he got N262WS to Florida. If I'm wrong, I will stand corrected.

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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby FastEddieB » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:10 pm

Yoda wrote:Seems like I read that he posted about getting his Repairman's Certificate (I can't find it now, if it's true), so who knows what he might have done, documented or undocumented?



If it was an ELSA, he was legal to do any maintenance or repair without any certificate or training.

I recall he took a ROTAX course, but don’t recall the LSRM training being mentioned.
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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby Yoda » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:39 pm

FastEddieB wrote:
Yoda wrote:Seems like I read that he posted about getting his Repairman's Certificate (I can't find it now, if it's true), so who knows what he might have done, documented or undocumented?



If it was an ELSA, he was legal to do any maintenance or repair without any certificate or training.

I recall he took a ROTAX course, but don’t recall the LSRM training being mentioned.


Yep, you're probably right. I was probably remembering his mention of the ROTAX course.

So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate? I thought he had to take the course even if he did build it under ELSA. If it were EAB, my understanding is he could work on it, but the annual inspections would have to be signed off by an A&P/IA, same as any other EAB. I know this gets into sticky territory. Lots of what-ifs, and oh-by-the-ways.

Plus, we're discussing the legal requirements, which we all know he seemed to ignore. So it is all just speculation anyway. We're used to discussing the way things should be done, legally. Here we're talking about a lawyer who was completely off the page.

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Re: Fatality - USSYorktown

Postby drseti » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:17 pm

Yoda wrote:So, I admit I am not well versed in the LSA world. So a guy can just BUY an ELSA, as he did, and then repair it himself without the Repairman certificate?


True, Yoda. Any trained (or untrained) monkey can maintain, modify, or repair any experimental aircraft, ELSA or E-AB, whether the owner or not. The Repairman Certificate is required only for the condition inspection.

The rules are indeed confusing. Four years ago, I did an EAA Webinar on the subject. A video is on my website. Here's the link:

http://avsport.org/webinars/videos/LSA_maint.mp4
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