Grass strip questions

[3Dreaming]

Actually the airplanes do care. Landing on grass is much more forgiving than pavement. Not such a big deal for tricycle gear aircraft, but it certainly is for a tail dragger.

We have tons of taildraggers at my paved home field, the only gear failure we ever had was a Cessna 170 that had a rusted through tail wheel attach bracket break. I did have a friend in a Piper Pacer hit a divot on a grass strip and flip on its back though.

Unless you slam it in, I still don't think the airplane cares.

Andy, it's not about slamming it in or about damage. You certainly can fly them off pavement. The big difference between a tail dragger and tricycle gear is where the weight is located in relation to the main gear. When taking off or landing the weight wants to be ahead of the main gear. This is what makes a tail dragger more dificult in ground handling. Small changes in direction on takeoff or landing tend to cause the airplane to dart on pavement. On grass the tires tend to slide making the airplane less touchy. This is based on over a thousand hours of tailwheel flying including about 200 houts of insrruction given in tailwheel aircraft.

To put it in something that may be more familiar it is kind of like the difference between race cars on dirt compared to pavement.

[Wm.Ince]

I think it's the pilots with the preference...the airplanes don't care!

It's not the arrow . . . it's the Indian.

[MrMorden]

I think it's the pilots with the preference...the airplanes don't care!

It's not the arrow . . . it's the Indian.

Ha, that was my point put much more succinctly!

[3Dreaming]

I think it's the pilots with the preference...the airplanes don't care!

It's not the arrow . . . it's the Indian.

Ha, that was my point put much more succinctly!

I don't remember if it was my CFI renewal or training for my IA, but one of the presenters said "you don't know, what you don't know".

That little bit of slide you get when you touch down a little crooked on grass, or make an over correction is what I'm talking about. When you touch down crooked on grass it's not such a big deal as compared to when you do the same thing on pavement. Being on grass is like doing it in slow motion, because you have more time to make a correction before things get out of hand.

Back in 2006 I bought a Piper Cub for my first light sport training aircraft. I wound up doing more tailwheel transition training than anything else. We have a nice long grass strip about 13 mile away that we would use for training. It was truly amazing that you could go do a lesson of take offs and landings on grass and the student have little trouble, only to return to our home field and not be able to keep it on the 60' wide paved runway. Until you go out and try to do some tailwheel take offs and landings as a pilot you will, "not know what you don't know".

[MrMorden]

I don't remember if it was my CFI renewal or training for my IA, but one of the presenters said "you don't know, what you don't know".

That little bit of slide you get when you touch down a little crooked on grass, or make an over correction is what I'm talking about. When you touch down crooked on grass it's not such a big deal as compared to when you do the same thing on pavement. Being on grass is like doing it in slow motion, because you have more time to make a correction before things get out of hand.

Back in 2006 I bought a Piper Cub for my first light sport training aircraft. I wound up doing more tailwheel transition training than anything else. We have a nice long grass strip about 13 mile away that we would use for training. It was truly amazing that you could go do a lesson of take offs and landings on grass and the student have little trouble, only to return to our home field and not be able to keep it on the 60' wide paved runway. Until you go out and try to do some tailwheel take offs and landings as a pilot you will, "not know what you don't know".

I respect your opinion and experience. But how is that *not* a pilot issue? You should not be touching down with side load no matter what surface you are on. It might be easier to recover from a mistake on grass, and that can help low-time tail wheel pilots, but once tail wheel technique and runway alignment are learned shouldn't this be a non-issue?

I get the idea of a more forgiving environment, but doesn't that still come back to training and pilot competence (e.g. "the indian")?

[3Dreaming]

I respect your opinion and experience. But how is that *not* a pilot issue? You should not be touching down with side load no matter what surface you are on. It might be easier to recover from a mistake on grass, and that can help low-time tail wheel pilots, but once tail wheel technique and runway alignment are learned shouldn't this be a non-issue?

I get the idea of a more forgiving environment, but doesn't that still come back to training and pilot competence (e.g. "the indian")?

It's not always about pilot technique. There are some of the old airplanes that simply don't handle well on pavement.
The ground handling issues for some airplanes are bad enough that at Oshkosh they will have a grass runway just to accommodate them.

[MrMorden]

It's not always about pilot technique. There are some of the old airplanes that simply don't handle well on pavement.
The ground handling issues for some airplanes are bad enough that at Oshkosh they will have a grass runway just to accommodate them.

Curious, where is that runway located? Sounds like a good place to sit and watch landings. The only grass runway I know at Oshkosh is the ultralight field.

[drseti]

It's called Pioneer Field, IIRC.

[3Dreaming]

Andy, I just thought of another instance where grass is preferred. The guys with the big smooth tundra tires, like the Alaskan Bush Wheels, say that a landing on pavement cost them about $50 or more in tire wear for each landing on pavement.

[drseti]

I had a pavement-induced issue with a tailwheel aircraft about 30 years ago. I was flying a 1938 Funk Model C into the Watsonville CA antique fly-in. the Funk has a hard rubber (non-pheumatic) tailwheel. Watsonville has two crossing paved runways; no grass. One of the runways was closed for display aircraft parking, thus I was landing on the other one, with a pretty stiff right crosswind. I kept the right wing down just fine, used lots of rudder, and slipped it in with no sideload on the landing gear. But, as I held back stick, the plane tried to weathervane into the wind. I felt the tailwheel sliding sideways across the pavement, and since I didn't want to shed it, I added a blast of power, hoping engine torque would compensate for the right crosswind. It did -- too much! I ended up ground-looping to the left (thankfully, no damage to the aircraft, just my pride). Bottom line is, hard rubber tailwheel damage would never have been a concern on grass.
I've subsequently learned how best to win a knife fight in a dark alley -- don't go in that alley!

[snaproll]

Old pilot’s wisdom… Paul has years of experience, or shall we say multiple decades. Grass strips are easier on rubber and are more suited to larger non wheel pants equipped wheels. Small tight setups, such a 5.00X5, 6.00X4 and 4.00X4 with tight wheel pants are better suited to paved runways as landing in tall grass can end up with the wheel pants being packed with grass clippings, weeds, etc. and can result in drag on a tire from being over packed. Many of the older aircraft flown are out of alignment, lack the ability to “shim” for alignment, and require heating and bending steel to realign. Most owners will balk at the expense of hiring a pro to heat and bend steel thereby either replacing tires frequently or landing on grass. Like Paul, I flown a variety of taildraggers, one with a tail skid, and most had alignment issues – all more conducive to grass strips. Flabob in Riverside CA created a grass strip last year next to the paved runway just to accommodate the need. For my flying, I will stick to paved runways with my Remos. Landed on a grass strip last year and had to remove the wheel pants to clear our 2 pounds of grass and weeds.

[JimC]

"but once tail wheel technique and runway alignment are learned shouldn't this be a non-issue?"

No, because the scrub limits are different on pavement than grass.
In a J3 on grass, my personal direct crosswind limit is about 27 kts, gusting 33 (you have to accept that the plane will be scrubbing sideways).
On pavement, it is about 20 kts, gusting 25. This may mostly be because of my relative incompetence on pavement.

[MackAttack]

Since this thread was resurrected, I'm curious about whether the original poster wound up on the turf field? Anyone know?

I hangar my Tecnam at 1XA7 (www.glosteraerodrome.com); 3 very well-drained and well-maintained turf runways; two of them over 3300' and 100' wide... There are trees at a couple of the ends but the runways are long enough that it's not an issue. While I agree that it is a little "buggier" at turf, I also like the quiet setting, low traffic and "old time feel" of a grass runway.

Great field, about 20 hangars and a new fly-in development going in with 20 lots. Airport owner is a CFI who specializes in tail-dragged training and there is an A&P/Rotax IRMT on the field (although he is moving about 10 miles away come October, he will maintain a hangar and come down to service folks who hangar there).

Pretty sociable bunch; mostly light aircraft (Cessna 120s, Citabrias, LSAs, plus some odds and ends like powered parachutes and the owner builds Chinook and Beaver kits). Fuel on the field.

I guess the short answer is that turf can be great if the airport is well-designed and maintained, with appropriately long runways given any obstacles. Texas weather helps in the winter, and I can definitely attest to how forgiving a grass surface is.

Anyway - random Labor Day thoughts.... Enjoy the holiday!

[JimC]

"I guess the short answer is that turf can be great if the airport is well-designed and maintained, with appropriately long runways given any obstacles".

After 50+ years of flying, mostly taildraggers and mostly off-field, I respectfully disagree with that. Due to search and rescue flying in a J3, most of my landings and takeoffs have been off-field. If a landing spot is rough, narrow, or short, I much prefer being in a taildragger because their ground handling is far more controllable than that of nosedraggers. And I much prefer grass or sand as a landing surface because they are more tolerant of unavoidable sideloads than pavement is.

When direct crosswinds are very strong, sideloads are unavoidable. They are far easier to deal with on turf.

[JimC]

I think it is preferable for anything. I've based my Cherokee on grass for the last 40 years.