Motorglider vs LSA

[drseti]

We are in complete agreement there, Bob. Thanks for posting.

[deckofficer]

We are in complete agreement there, Bob. Thanks for posting.

Since you have a good track record of answering posts and as I already mentioned, knowledgeable, I would appreciate your input for my choice of a plane. I know this is a Sport Pilot forum but I'm leaning towards a Glider license with self launch for the reasons already discussed. Two planes have my current attention, both have pros and cons. My missions are cross country flying, engine off soaring, and some back country flying/camping. The social aspect of the back country fliers and their camp outs is something I want to participate in at the destinations that getting a motor glider into and out of is possible, as most are. The social aspect of the motor glider group would be like old home week as I know a number of former hang glider pilots that have aged like me and move out of foot launch hg to motor gliders.

So here are the two planes, a Pipistrel Sinus Flex (two sets of wing tips for 40' and 50') and a Sonex Xenos also two sets of wing tips, the longest span being 46'. As I know you are aware of, the choice of the tips for pilots that are flying on a Glider license, if I'm doing a lot of local flying solo and don't want the to be removing wing tips to hangar, I'm legal with the short wing tips. Taking a passenger on that Glider license and the increase of weight would mean I need 46' span or greater to be legal.

For my use here are the pluses of the Pipistrel.

1) It is a high wing and I have 3 cars that will share hangar space plus I enjoy the view from a high wing. Of course the drawback of a high wing is if coring a thermal with others, my vertical view is limited.

2) Very clean composite airframe so 30 to 1, light and strong.


The Sonex Xenos.

1) A large and very social flying community.

2) The offering of a turbo upgrade to the existing AeroVee engine for a reasonable $4K.

3) Price of admission about 1/4 of the Pipistrel


The availability of the turbo is important to me for all the reasons it is for anyone. Shorter take off, higher cruise efficiency (and since it is a motor glider I'll always have oxygen on board), I'll be flying in the Tahoe region a lot, and I like the more quiet exhaust of a turbo. Getting boost (more hp) from what would normally be wasted exhaust heat has always made good sense to me.

Do you have any suggestions of other planes that might work for my mission profile?

[Jack Tyler]

Bob, here are a couple of things you might want to consider:
-- If you aren't already familiar with the RAF, be sure to visit theraf.org. We are the only aviation organization dedicated to preserving, maintaining and creating airstrips for recreational access, we now have 7,000+ members (and are growing vs. shrinking) and now have MOU's with the two by-far largest public land managers (BLM and USFS) establishing aviation as a legitimate mode of access onto public lands. There's much more to the story. PM me if you'd like more info, or use the 'People' pull-down menu to find your own Liaison. You are so right about the special nature of the folks you find at backcountry destinations, and the quality of recreation (hiking, fishing and such) can be both unique and extraordinary in more remote locations.
-- Motorglider access into unimproved recreational airstrips will likely raise both density altitude and surface suitability issues for you. You've already noted the value of turbocharging (and thanks for thinking about noise impacts of an engine, something most folks don't consider when flying over recreational areas). But a turbo will only offset the impact of so much DA and, as you know, DA's in mountain areas like Tahoe in the summertime can be extraordinarily high. In your shoes, I'd spec a ground adjustable prop as part of an a/c purchase, give up some cruise speed (e.g. during the summer and/or when planning flights into high DA areas), and adjust it for better (higher rpm and so more available power) takeoffs. As for surface conditions, you'll already know that most LSA's are not necessarily known for their especially robust landing gear. (There are exceptions, like the models offered by Just, but that doesn't seem to be what you are looking for). This will be especially true for a/c intentionally designed and built for the lightest possible weight. Along with the structures themselves, the prop clearance is not going to be very large, the wheel diameters are going to be small, the fuselage ground clearance is going to be limited. Surface undulations, the occasional gopher hole or some rutting hogs can make for a somewhat hostile runway surface even for the typical backcountry tail dragger. And if you opt for a lightweight LSA tail dragger like the Sinus or Virus, you'd have to carefully consider the capability of that tiny tail wheel. You'll also want to carefully review the insurance coverage you can obtain if mixing backcountry access with glider capabilities. A bent a/c in a remote location is likely going to leave via helicopter, and that comes with a hefty bill. In balance, my sense is that starting with a glider class, you will be significantly reducing your access to the available collection of unimproved airstrips in recreationally desirable locations, most especially out west.
-- Finally, the Sonex models certainly have their proponents & supporters. I'd just offer two cautions: First, some Sonex builders I've known have migrated beyond a Sonex to another model, either before it's completion or shortly thereafter. (E.g. there are two builders just in my local EAA chapter who've done so). The good news there is that you can probably find a partially completed Sonex model for a song. The bad news is that those sellers purchased their kits more because of the low cost, just as you mentioned, rather than because it was the most suitable a/c choice for the intended mission. Be sure to sit in a Sonex cockpit, look to your right, and ask yourself just how much camping gear you'll want to fly off with...and where it's going to be stowed & safely restrained. And WRT cost, don't overlook the finished cost of any kit built a/c you are considering. Typically, kit manufacturers offer minimal cost projections while overlooking typical costs like the avionics panel a given buyer will spec out for the mission, a quality paint job (to retain the a/c's value over time) or the build tools one must buy. Be sure to line up apples with apples.

Good luck on your search. Sounds to me like you have some good times ahead of you!

[MrMorden]

A friend of mine has a Xenos. It's a very cool airplane. Fully aerobatic (+6g/-3g) and built like a tank like all Sonex products. He has taken long trips (100 miles or more) where he has averaged 1gph by soaring part of the way. He doesn't get there fast, but he saves a lot of gas!

[deckofficer]

Bob, here are a couple of things you might want to consider:
-- If you aren't already familiar with the RAF, be sure to visit theraf.org. We are the only aviation organization dedicated to preserving, maintaining and creating airstrips for recreational access, we now have 7,000+ members (and are growing vs. shrinking) and now have MOU's with the two by-far largest public land managers (BLM and USFS) establishing aviation as a legitimate mode of access onto public lands. There's much more to the story. PM me if you'd like more info, or use the 'People' pull-down menu to find your own Liaison. You are so right about the special nature of the folks you find at backcountry destinations, and the quality of recreation (hiking, fishing and such) can be both unique and extraordinary in more remote locations.
-- Motorglider access into unimproved recreational airstrips will likely raise both density altitude and surface suitability issues for you. You've already noted the value of turbocharging (and thanks for thinking about noise impacts of an engine, something most folks don't consider when flying over recreational areas). But a turbo will only offset the impact of so much DA and, as you know, DA's in mountain areas like Tahoe in the summertime can be extraordinarily high. In your shoes, I'd spec a ground adjustable prop as part of an a/c purchase, give up some cruise speed (e.g. during the summer and/or when planning flights into high DA areas), and adjust it for better (higher rpm and so more available power) takeoffs. As for surface conditions, you'll already know that most LSA's are not necessarily known for their especially robust landing gear. (There are exceptions, like the models offered by Just, but that doesn't seem to be what you are looking for). This will be especially true for a/c intentionally designed and built for the lightest possible weight. Along with the structures themselves, the prop clearance is not going to be very large, the wheel diameters are going to be small, the fuselage ground clearance is going to be limited. Surface undulations, the occasional gopher hole or some rutting hogs can make for a somewhat hostile runway surface even for the typical backcountry tail dragger. And if you opt for a lightweight LSA tail dragger like the Sinus or Virus, you'd have to carefully consider the capability of that tiny tail wheel. You'll also want to carefully review the insurance coverage you can obtain if mixing backcountry access with glider capabilities. A bent a/c in a remote location is likely going to leave via helicopter, and that comes with a hefty bill. In balance, my sense is that starting with a glider class, you will be significantly reducing your access to the available collection of unimproved airstrips in recreationally desirable locations, most especially out west.
-- Finally, the Sonex models certainly have their proponents & supporters. I'd just offer two cautions: First, some Sonex builders I've known have migrated beyond a Sonex to another model, either before it's completion or shortly thereafter. (E.g. there are two builders just in my local EAA chapter who've done so). The good news there is that you can probably find a partially completed Sonex model for a song. The bad news is that those sellers purchased their kits more because of the low cost, just as you mentioned, rather than because it was the most suitable a/c choice for the intended mission. Be sure to sit in a Sonex cockpit, look to your right, and ask yourself just how much camping gear you'll want to fly off with...and where it's going to be stowed & safely restrained. And WRT cost, don't overlook the finished cost of any kit built a/c you are considering. Typically, kit manufacturers offer minimal cost projections while overlooking typical costs like the avionics panel a given buyer will spec out for the mission, a quality paint job (to retain the a/c's value over time) or the build tools one must buy. Be sure to line up apples with apples.

Good luck on your search. Sounds to me like you have some good times ahead of you!

Jack,

Thanks so much for taking the time for such a well thought out reply. I should mention that a CH 701 and Savannah as always been on my short list for back country flying. A CH 701 recently sold on Barnstormers for $33K with the Rotax 914 turbo. I know the CH 701 is a very slow plane and as such, cross country flights of any given distance will require twice the flying hours. I have to accept for my varied missions, no single plane is going to check all the boxes. Thanks for the link http://www.theraf.org/ I'll be doing some reading over there.

[Jack Tyler]

Bob, you're on track to bring up the inherent conflict between the STOL-like performance characteristics of some LSA models (the 701 you mention and the Just models are two examples) and their relatively slow cross-country performance because that's a dilemma faced by many Part 23 as well as LSA owners. You can try to find a compromise - better speed while getting to that distant backcountry airstrip but relatively rugged construction and relatively slow Vso when its time to land - but that typically involves the pocketbook for Part 23 a/c (e.g. a Husky or 180/185). Finding that compromise for LSA a/c is tougher. If you base the a/c in places like Idaho and Montana, the recreational destinations - especially the more remote and therefore appealing ones - are more plentiful, but then the weather becomes more of a factor. As you suggest, the devil's in the details and finding a 'one size fits all' a/c that suits just what you want is a true challenge.

There are some lifestyle options, however. One pretty well-known example is Bob Jones, a retired physician that some on this forum might have met because he exhibits at Sebring, Copperstate and Sun 'n Fun. Bob and bride travel around the USA each year in their relatively small Roadtrek Class B while towing a trailer/hangar housing their Kitfox. They'll pick an area of the country, dedicate a big chunk of a year to it, enjoy USFS, state and BLM campgrounds and fly the dickens off the Kitfox, low & slow. When Bob exhibits at a show and after parking his wagon train and pulling out the Kitfox, he puts out a series of foam boards, some showing jaw-dropping pictures of where he's flown and others full of spreadsheet details covering how much this lifestyle costs (it's amazingly affordable, given how he's approached it), what a typical schedule is like, and the other nitty-gritty detail intended to get past the dream and illustrate the practical side of this lifestyle option. Bob's a bit of a Johnny Appleseed, wanting to help others see there are affordable ways to do some amazing flying. IMO his was the single most interesting program/exhibit at Sebring the last two years I attended. So pull back the blinders, Bob. There may be multiple ways to end up accomplishing your goal.

[deckofficer]

Jack,

You are so helpful and generous with your time, thank you. I feel if I completely open up to you, you will have some sage advice so here goes,

My history of flying only consists of a couple of hundred hours flying hang gliders in the 70's and 80's. At the same time I was taking PPL lessons and have only 15 hours solo in a 150. The company I worked for went bankrupt so that ended my lessons. Fast forward about 10 years and I found myself out of the work force again but this time with savings. Took a year off, bought a used Cal 40 sailboat and single handed from Long Beach to Muluge in Baja. I love the sea so while I still had savings I sold the Cal 40 and enrolled at the California Maritime Academy then embarked on a career of merchant shipping. I retired early to care for my dad and did so for over 6 years. I had hurt my back a couple of times getting him off the floor and now feel I'm just not in good enough shape to go cruising again single handed. As of this Monday dad at 96 is in a care facility and while this has given me more time for myself, I visit him every day and that is a 52 mile roundtrip commute. When the time comes I plan to move to an airpark in Arizona to enjoy almost 365 days a year of good flying weather. Over the years I've collected some classic cars and as such would prefer a high wing so that plane and cars are accessible from the hangar next to the home. When I was flying 30+ years ago I really enjoyed the silence of soaring but at the same time enjoyed my solo time in the 150 practicing touch and go's. My flying club had a fun day with contests that excluded student pilots from the contests. I could accept this for the flour bomb drop and balloon burst, as in our inexperience we could have gotten in trouble, but the spot landing contest is something we students practiced all the time. They gave in and allowed the student pilots to compete in the spot landing and my 1st place trophy is my 1st and only flying award. Most every back country event does use a strip that has an identifier, so other than being small and having a high DA, I should be able to participate in most GA or LSA aircraft. I'm on a Pipistrel forum and have discovered a number of owners have registered their Virus SW as a motor glider even though this is the only offering by Pipistrel that only has a 36' wing span, all the others are 40' and longer, making hangar insertion a PIA. I haven't found any plane that checks more of my boxes than the Virus SW. High wing to make sharing the hangar with the cars easy, 36' wing span for getting through the door, optional speed brake (spoiler) to allow descent into small, mountainous air strips, excellent cross country speed, well the list goes on. Now on to the flying privileges (or lack of) on a no medical license. As a Sport Pilot there are many limitations and a LSA also has many limitations, while a Glider license with self launch endorsement combined with an aircraft registered as a motor glider removes all these limitations. It was always my understanding that to be registered as a glider the a/c needed a wing span that when squared and then divided by weight came to 0.62 or less. My confusion is on weight, is it empty, MTOW, or laden ramp weight? Since so many have registered the Virus SW as a motor glider it appears that empty weight is used for the above span formula. If this is the case, then I've found my plane.

Thank you for your feedback.


Bob

[SportPilot]

.......

[deckofficer]

What do you need to do that you can't do as a Sport Pilot? You can't fly at night and IFR. As we get older, neither of those is a good idea anyway. I just turned 68. I'm having more fun flying with Sport Pilot privileges than the previous 50 years as instrument rated Commercial and CFI.

Very good question. I used to live in Valdez before our airport starting hosting the STOL contests. I would like to get back to my old stomping grounds and as a Sport Pilot can not fly in Canada. I also enjoy Baja, as with Canada, Mexico doesn't allow Sport Pilots in their airspace. As an older pilot too, I have no interest in IFR or night, but would like the occasional evening flight. I will be flying mostly in Arizona which is fine with the Sport Pilot, but will also fly in the Tahoe region and the 10,000' limit is too restrictive in that area. If I get a plane as capable as a Pipistrel Virus SW, I sure wouldn't want to see its performance hobbled by LSA restrictions.

[SportPilot]

.......

[deckofficer]

"Fly up to 10,000 feet above mean sea level (MSL) or 2,000 feet above ground level (AGL), whichever is higher."

Your correct, I forgot about the rule. I can live with that because at my age and being a smoker I wouldn't want to spend much time above 10,000' without oxygen. To clear a pass would require about 15 minutes above 10,000'. When at these altitudes I'll bring my oxy-meter for my finger to see how well I'm doing. I know the last time I played tennis at Tahoe I was surprised at how winded I got, so I'm aware that many years of smoking has taken its toll on my lung's ability to oxygenate my blood. There was a time in my younger years I could easily go 2 minutes underwater, I'm sure that too is no longer the case.

[Jack Tyler]

Bob:

A Cal 40, ahh the memories. Back in the day, THE classic long distance sailing machine. FYI we are kindred spirits as my wife and I just finished 30,000 miles to 53 countries when we sold our Pearson 424 in Brisbane in 2011. Many a good memory.

Here are a couple of add'l thoughts altho' they may lead us into the weeds of detail and make email exchanges more appropriate ([email protected]).

"Most every back country event does use a strip that has an identifier, so other than being small and having a high DA, I should be able to participate in most GA or LSA aircraft. " That's a false assumption. There's no correlation between a strip having an identifier and a strip being high/low, long/short, or paved/unimproved. I can see you are working on defining your mission, and that's one of the key 'first steps', so definitely keep working on that. What's missing, I think, is sufficient experience - in exposure to the kind of aircraft you are considering and in flying. So that's where I'd encourage you to put some effort. And if that takes a day or two away from Dad occasionally, just give him a wink and tell him you're on a new Big Adventure.

I'm a big Pipistrel fan but they are a unique breed. Use the Pipistrel forum to find an owner within driving distance of you, and bum yourself a ride (helping with fuel and a good post-flight lunch usually work). Talk about your goals and ask the owner how consistent they are with his a/c's performance and structures. Give a good eye to the interior volume given your distant traveling and camping goals. (Think backpacking...) And begin getting a bit of stick time in some LSA's, and with an instructor who knows LSA's. I'm sure you remember from your sailing days the couples who, tho' absent offshore sailing experience, would buy a pricey cruising boat because they had the cruising dream BUT, despite it's small relative expense, wouldn't think about spending a week on a bareboat somewhere to test their decision to go sailing away. Tangible contact in the real world would, I think, would serve you extremely well.

Folks like Paul can better speak to the details of a qualifying motorglider than I, altho' obviously many Virus owners have led the way. No matter what you learn on the forums, if you aren't an AOPA member you should consider joining so, among many other reasons, you can use their Technical Specialists when such Q's arise. As for your high altitude flying aspirations, keep in mind AOPA's lead medical advisor (and a top notch surgeon and pilot), Jonathan Sackier, advises O2 use for guys our age anytime above 5,000' MSL. You are probably not a good candidate for getting into the mountains without full-time O2. But far more importantly, when we were young men ~50% of us smoked, whereas now it's down to ~25%. That suggests quitting is a reasonable goal for you, too.

There's a ton to talk about re: flying out west, and BTW you are welcome to fly an LSA into Canada, or thru Canada into Alaska. Canada fixed that issue two years or so ago. AZ offers near full-time flying weather but only if you are extremely heat tolerant (or find an air park up high). But it's only one of your SW USA state options. The APA has been doing some marvelous reclamation projects in concert with the RAF and is one of the better state pilot associations - http://azpilots.org But out west, pilot shelters & often courtesy cars are more the norm than the exception, making day-to-day travel easy & cheap if you have a bedroll. But then, other states are opening up recreational airstrips in beautiful country as well, one example being the Walton Family committing to open a string of backcountry destinations in the AR Ozarks. As I said, lots to talk about. (Also, you need to join the RAF. Won't cost you a dime). But pick a few 'exposure' goals - to flying and LSA's and motorgliders - as doing so will be both helpful and fun.

Best wishes,

[drseti]

It was always my understanding that to be registered as a glider the a/c needed a wing span that when squared and then divided by weight came to 0.62 or less.

It's actually the reciptocal of that, Bob: weight divided by span squared.

My confusion is on weight, is it empty, MTOW, or laden ramp weight? Since so many have registered the Virus SW as a motor glider it appears that empty weight is used for the above span formula.

It is actually max gross weight. So, for a 1320 pound LSA glider, the minimum span equals 46.14 feet. With the wing extensions installed, the Virus qualifies. With the short wings, it is actually an LSA Airplane, and must be flown under SP or above ASEL rules. IOW, it can't legally be flown on just a glider certificate without the long wingtips.

[Wm.Ince]

Bob:
. . . "Here are a couple of add'l thoughts altho' they may lead us into the weeds of detail and make email exchanges more appropriate ([email protected])." . . .

Great advice Jack.

[deckofficer]

Bob:

A Cal 40, ahh the memories. Back in the day, THE classic long distance sailing machine. FYI we are kindred spirits as my wife and I just finished 30,000 miles to 53 countries when we sold our Pearson 424 in Brisbane in 2011. Many a good memory.

Here are a couple of add'l thoughts altho' they may lead us into the weeds of detail and make email exchanges more appropriate ([email protected]).

"Most every back country event does use a strip that has an identifier, so other than being small and having a high DA, I should be able to participate in most GA or LSA aircraft. " That's a false assumption. There's no correlation between a strip having an identifier and a strip being high/low, long/short, or paved/unimproved. I can see you are working on defining your mission, and that's one of the key 'first steps', so definitely keep working on that. What's missing, I think, is sufficient experience - in exposure to the kind of aircraft you are considering and in flying. So that's where I'd encourage you to put some effort. And if that takes a day or two away from Dad occasionally, just give him a wink and tell him you're on a new Big Adventure.

I'm a big Pipistrel fan but they are a unique breed. Use the Pipistrel forum to find an owner within driving distance of you, and bum yourself a ride (helping with fuel and a good post-flight lunch usually work). Talk about your goals and ask the owner how consistent they are with his a/c's performance and structures. Give a good eye to the interior volume given your distant traveling and camping goals. (Think backpacking...) And begin getting a bit of stick time in some LSA's, and with an instructor who knows LSA's. I'm sure you remember from your sailing days the couples who, tho' absent offshore sailing experience, would buy a pricey cruising boat because they had the cruising dream BUT, despite it's small relative expense, wouldn't think about spending a week on a bareboat somewhere to test their decision to go sailing away. Tangible contact in the real world would, I think, would serve you extremely well.

Folks like Paul can better speak to the details of a qualifying motorglider than I, altho' obviously many Virus owners have led the way. No matter what you learn on the forums, if you aren't an AOPA member you should consider joining so, among many other reasons, you can use their Technical Specialists when such Q's arise. As for your high altitude flying aspirations, keep in mind AOPA's lead medical advisor (and a top notch surgeon and pilot), Jonathan Sackier, advises O2 use for guys our age anytime above 5,000' MSL. You are probably not a good candidate for getting into the mountains without full-time O2. But far more importantly, when we were young men ~50% of us smoked, whereas now it's down to ~25%. That suggests quitting is a reasonable goal for you, too.

There's a ton to talk about re: flying out west, and BTW you are welcome to fly an LSA into Canada, or thru Canada into Alaska. Canada fixed that issue two years or so ago. AZ offers near full-time flying weather but only if you are extremely heat tolerant (or find an air park up high). But it's only one of your SW USA state options. The APA has been doing some marvelous reclamation projects in concert with the RAF and is one of the better state pilot associations - http://azpilots.org But out west, pilot shelters & often courtesy cars are more the norm than the exception, making day-to-day travel easy & cheap if you have a bedroll. But then, other states are opening up recreational airstrips in beautiful country as well, one example being the Walton Family committing to open a string of backcountry destinations in the AR Ozarks. As I said, lots to talk about. (Also, you need to join the RAF. Won't cost you a dime). But pick a few 'exposure' goals - to flying and LSA's and motorgliders - as doing so will be both helpful and fun.

Best wishes,

We could very well be we are kindred spirits in more than sailing and flying but in both of those arenas you are the teacher while I am the student. I never crossed an ocean in the Cal 40 but rather a downwind surf (where it really shines) from Long Beach to the Sea of Cortez. All my ocean crossing were on the bridge of merchant ships like container and break bulk. The break bulk did take me to some interesting places that are small, out of the way, and not set up to handle a container ship like Easter Island. I'm active on the Cruiser's Forum, same username and avatar but about 4000 more post than here.

The Backcountry Pilots forum is where I got the impression I could participate in something like a 172 because even though most fly Cub like planes, there are members with planes like the 172. The day trips to challenging spots from base camp the 172 drivers will hitch a ride or stay at base camp's air strip. I'm OK with the limited participation to have a more cross country capable a/c.

I will be looking for folks to take me up in their a/c, fuel and lunch is the least I could offer. I want dad to get a bit bettered settled in his new setting and the 1st thing I need to do is get moved out of my SoCal vacation residence and get it sold. After that I'll be begging for rides. When flying my hang glider in the beginning, it was what we called "sleigh rides", launching from the mountain in clean air and flying minimum sink straight to the LZ. As I gained more experience I would launch during thermal conditions and even though it was awhile before I cored one, the feeling of lift made me ecstatic. If that part of me is still intact after all these years, then a a/c like the Pipistrel Flex would check that box. I'll have to get a flight in one during promising conditions to see if those 30 year old feelings are still part of me.

Just like your analogy of the wannabe cruising couple spending major coin on their boats then never going offshore, I could be capable of making the same mistake in regard to a mission perfect plane. With the added input from you and Sportpilot, maybe the route of Sport Pilot license instead of Glider with self launch is the way to go for me. Sportpilot pointed out the rule of 10,000' MSL but 2,000' AGL, so that I can live with. You pointed out Canada as of 2 years ago is allowing US licensed Sport Pilots to fly in their airspace, so I could go to Valdez for the STOL contest. With these clarifications, something like a LSA Flight Design CTSW could be perfect for my 1st plane. High wing for the cars sharing the hangar, capable cross country, fuel efficient, modern and strong carbon fiber, and plenty to choose from. Who knows, maybe I'll find a Sport Pilot flight school that has a CTSW used for training for sale and I could put together a package deal on instruction and purchase of my training a/c.

As for me being heat tolerant to deal with living in an Arizona airpark, my choice is limited due to me spending my most productive years out of the work force caring for dad. Had I worked right to retirement, then retiring in the State I spent my entire life in, California, wouldn't be an issue and I'd be just down the road at Cameron Airpark Estates, above the seasonal fog east of Sacramento in the Sierra Foothills. But that is no longer the case, choices in my retirement budget is eastern Washington State at 7 Bays, where lot, home and hangar can be had for less than a new Pipistrel, but very cold in the winter. In Arizona there are at least 3 airparks in the same general area, about 50% more but still within budget. This is why a good cross country a/c is desired, all friends and family are in California and Oregon.

To sum up, with the sage advise from you, Sportpilot and drseti, it seems the limitations of Sport Pilot are in fact not that limiting for me. Flight Design a/c are much easier to find on the used market and would probably serve me well for my very first powered a/c purchase.

On a lighter note, here is a picture of me visiting a friend at Cameron Air Park, just east of Folsom off of highway 50 about 12 miles from where I live. Wish I could afford retirement here.