Motorglider vs LSA

[pjcampbell]

hmmm
from wikipedia, if that can be trusted:

In the US, a powered glider may be certificated for up to two occupants, up to 850 kg maximum weight, and with a maximum ratio of weight to wing span squared of 3 kg/m2

the sinus wing area is 131.97 ft2. which is 12.2604 m^2. I took 12.26 m^2 * 3kg = 36 kg or 79 pounds. obviously that can't be right.

however from what i'm reading it seems that quite a few Aircraft are SLSA approved and motor glider approved. Unless I am missing something.

http://www.touringmotorgliders.org/kb/i ... ntryID=294

My curiosity is mainly because our local airport teaches gliding but not sport pilot. It seems like a good first step given i do not have time to drive around to different airports.

[MovingOn]

.......

[pjcampbell]

Ah ok... was misreading.

[pjcampbell]

So would the "weight" mean the gross weight of the aircraft, or your actual take off weight?

Looks like the Sinus would qualify under either condition, but the Virus could be flown under the weight limit, but it's aircraft MTOW (1235) is higher than that formula provides (roughly 1024 pounds).

[drseti]

The motorglider distinction is a certification designation, not an operating one. So, the weight to be used to ensure compliance has to be maximum gross weight.

[zaitcev]

Phoenix motorglider came to be synonymous with this loophole in America. The downside is, it's costlier than a regular S-LSA. Back when CTLS was selling for $100..110k, Phoenix listed for $132k+. Jim Lee's website lists $149k base today.

Another viable user of this loophole is Xenos, which is basically Sonex with the wingspan extended enough to qualify.

Notably enough, neither of the two is Part 23 certified, so their maintenance regime is that of an S-LSA and EX-AB respectively. In that, they differ from Sinus or whatever is that Pipistrel thing. There could also be some old-school certified motorgliders available, such as Grob 109, perhaps. I really know very little about those.

BTW, keep in mind that you need a self-launch endorsement to fly those off the ground under power.

[Daidalos]

I looked into this myself once. Pipisterl makes one,there may be others. Not IFR however. It can qualify as an LSA with the prop pitch for reduced speed.

See: http://www.pipistrel-usa.com/models/sinus.html

Please note: Speed performance is restricted and the in flight adjustable propeller disabled to comply with LSA category requirements. The propeller can feather when the engine is stopped.

The Sinus motorglider is a strutless 49' 1½" wing span motorglider, powered by the 80hp Rotax 912 4-stroke engine and available as a ready-to-fly LSA aircraft or as a kit in either the LSA or experimental categories.

The Sinus is equipped with positive and negative flaperons, airbrakes and tail wheel (optional nosewheel). It is manufactured from hi-tech epoxy resin, fibreglass, carbon and kevlar composites. The airfoil used on the wings is IMD 029-b (Orlando, Venuti).

The cabin is properly insulated from noise and very comfortable for even those long flights. The seats are ergonomic with an adjustable head rest. Both the pilot and passenger pedals have differential toe brakes fitted. The pedals are adjustable forward and aft in flight and are manufactured from stainless steel. All controls are easy to use and reach from both seats and dual pedals and sticks mean the aircraft can be flown from either seat. The wing tanks have the fuel cap on top, as well as a visual check within the cockpit for the fuel level. The standard capacity is 16 gallons with a long range option increasing the capacity to around 26 gallons.

The main landing gear is aerodynamically profiled and made of composite materials. The main wheels have strong hydraulic disk brakes and the tail wheel or nosewheel option is directly controlled by the pedals. The airbrakes on top of the wing allow landing the Sinus in very short distances over high obstacles.

The Sinus assembly is very simple, just like conventional gliders, and the wing control connections are automatically locked on connection of the wings. It takes most owners about 20 minutes to rig or de-rig the aircraft.

The Sinus 912 is our most popular aircraft and It uses the legendary 80 hp Rotax 912, 4 cylinder 4-stroke engine (now with a 2000 TBO) which allows the Sinus to become a 'super sophisticated' motorglider just like the 'real ones' but at a 1/3 of the price. If you want to spoil yourself and your passenger, the Rotax 912 is the engine of choice for the vast distances we travel in the USA.

[CTLSi]

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[drseti]

Part of the confusion comes from FAR 1.1. The official FAA glossary lists two different definitions each for "category" and "class", one as the terms pertain to aircraft certification, and the other as applies to pilot certification. I've prepared an EAA webinar on the subject, and will post the date, time, and link as soon as I have it.

[3Dreaming]

Part of the confusion comes from FAR 1.1. The official FAA glossary lists two different definitions each for "category" and "class", one as the terms pertain to aircraft certification, and the other as applies to pilot certification. I've prepared an EAA webinar on the subject, and will post the date, time, and link as soon as I have it.

I don't think it is as confusing as you think. The definitions have been this way for a while. I've been teaching it for private pilot ground school, because they test it on the private pilot knowledge test.

[deckofficer]

This whole self launch motor glider is an idea I've been considering for quite awhile. The restrictions for both LSA aircraft and the Sport pilot license is just too confining. As much as I would like all the PPL privileges without a medical, I have to accept a motor glider with a minimum 47' wingspan which makes hangar insertion a PIA. Then I came across a PPL holder who purchased a new Pipistrel Virus SW, a real efficient speed machine with a 35.13' wingspan and registered it Glider - Experimental Exhibition with the idea that if he at a later date can no longer pass the medical, he could still fly. I joined the forum that he owns just to talk to him about this because I was always under the impression that the wingspan formula is based on MTOW and not empty weight. I was unable to get this cleared up from him but I believe I'm right on the MTOW, but if I'm wrong I'd buy a new Virus SW in a flash. The specs on this plane is just too sweet to pass up, not to mention it fits the hangar. The Virus SW could pass as a motor glider if the pilot weighs 100 lbs or less and you don't have more than 7 gallons of fuel. The next step up in wingspan for the Pipistrel line is the regular Virus at 40' 10.5", so to be operated as a motor glider with a pilot only having a glider license with self launch endorsement, MTOW would be 1055 lbs. This would work for me but is restrictive because I'm 240 lbs so my passenger would have to be 100 lbs or less and could only carry 15 gallons of fuel. So on to the Pipistrel Sinus at 49.125' wingspan, and finally the wingspan formula gives a MTOW of 1500 lbs which happens to be 210 lbs more than this plane's placarded MTOW of 1290 lbs. After all this Pipistrel now offers the "Flex" with two sets of wing tips, one to make it a Virus at 40' 10.5" and the other a Sinus at 49.125'. If the mission is flying solo, the short tips for ease of getting in and out of the hangar, if flying with a friend, the longer tips. Here is the unofficial Pipistrel web site that the gentleman with the Virus SW can be found. http://forum.pipistrelowners.com/post/w ... 1290013535

[zaitcev]

Another well-known option is Stemme. Those are even more ridiculously expensive than e.g. Phoenix, and I heard that their maintenance is a real nightmare. Nonetheless, as Dr. Shuch's saying, they are certified airplanes. It's enough for a guy in Durango to run a sightseeing business using one of those (it's called "Glider Bob").

[rsteele]

I got to sit in a Sinus at the LSA show in Mt. Vernon Il. this fall, and spend some time talking to the folks. The Sinus is an LSA that you can fly like a motor-glider, not a part 123 motor-glider. The plane is unbelievable roomy. I'm very very tall and I was quite comfortable in it. Any outsized sport pilots looking for a new ride should at least think about this plane. The fit is good and the finish is what you would expect from a carbon composite plane where every gram is counted.

Ron

[drseti]

The "vs." in the title of this thread suggests some confusion. To clarify: LSA is a Category of aircraft (actually, several categories: S-LSA, E-LSA, E-AB LSA, certified LSA). Glider is a Class of Aircraft, so there can be S-LSA gliders, E-LSA gliders, etc. Motorglider is an endorsement (actually, self-launch, as opposed to aero-tow or winch-launched). So, there's no "vs." You can fly any glider with a Glider rating and an endorsement appropriate to your type of launch. You can fly any glider that qualifies as an LSA, with a Sport Pilot rating along with an endorsement for gliders and another endorsement appropriate to your type of launch.

[deckofficer]

drseti,

I've always gotten a lot out of your posts, you are quite knowledgeable. I agree the "vs" is misleading but after rereading the OP's first post it was clear he was comparing the privileges of a Sport Pilot flying a LSA vs a Glider pilot with self launch endorsement flying a motor glider. The main take away for me is both licenses are no medical, so if that is the primary reason a pilot chooses the LSA route, there is a better way by going the motor glider route with a Glider License. Of course if your mission is enjoying back country flying/camping and getting in and out of same, then SLA like a CH 701 and Sport Pilot license would be the way to go. If you enjoy cross country, flying high to avoid turbulence, flying into Mexico or Canada, controlled airspace, etc., then a Glider License with self launch makes sense for a "no medical" freedom.