Looking for some tips on crosswind landings. I have 50-60 landings in the P2008 now so thaught I would try some crosswind landings today. Winds 300 at 14. Landing on 22.
The first one seemed ok other that I could feel some side load on the gear after the touch and go.
The next three seemed pretty good just needed to keep adding aileron as the plane slowed up.
Then I had a couple where my approach did not seem as stable and after the initial touchdown I decided to go around. Then on the last one as i slowed for a full stop it started to feel like it might lift the wing and flip me over. Maybe it just felt like it would. The main wheel was not lifting up but I was worried that if it did it would be too late. The slower I got the worse it seemed. I decided to add power go around and land on 33. Im sure it did not look very graceful. There are some buildings north of the runway and maybe that was causing gusting or maybe winds were just picking up a bit or? Im sure my crosswind landings could use some improvement.
The crosswind component is 17 for the P2008.
I only have 250 ttl hours and most of them in a 172 and 182.
Any suggestions or comments are welcomed.
Jake
crosswind landings
Moderator: drseti
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CharlieTango
- Posts: 1000
- Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:04 am
- Location: Mammoth Lakes, California
jake,
light sport has little kinetic energy, this energy can be quickly eliminated by a gust. the compensation is your throttle so #1 make sure your ready to advance it if you need to.
you will likely find that less flaps and more throttle are useful as gust factor increases. increasing your speed by half the gust factor allows for more margin from stall.
on rollout and taxi make sure you have your controls positioned correctly, when you felt as thought the wing might come up did you have full right aileron in?
can you land on the upwind wheel 1st? this demonstrates good aileron / drift control countered by rudder.
do you approach in a crab and the kick it strait for your landing or do you approach wing low? approaching wing low allows for refining your crosswind technique:
1) maintain heading with rudder
2) counter drift with ailerons
during low flight over the runway, intentionally drift from centerline to left runway edge then back to centerline, the right runway edge and back to centerline. if you can demonstrate that skill you probably won't be challenged much by x-wind landings
light sport has little kinetic energy, this energy can be quickly eliminated by a gust. the compensation is your throttle so #1 make sure your ready to advance it if you need to.
you will likely find that less flaps and more throttle are useful as gust factor increases. increasing your speed by half the gust factor allows for more margin from stall.
on rollout and taxi make sure you have your controls positioned correctly, when you felt as thought the wing might come up did you have full right aileron in?
can you land on the upwind wheel 1st? this demonstrates good aileron / drift control countered by rudder.
do you approach in a crab and the kick it strait for your landing or do you approach wing low? approaching wing low allows for refining your crosswind technique:
1) maintain heading with rudder
2) counter drift with ailerons
during low flight over the runway, intentionally drift from centerline to left runway edge then back to centerline, the right runway edge and back to centerline. if you can demonstrate that skill you probably won't be challenged much by x-wind landings
Just lean in enough aileron to stop drifting sideways and add enough opposite rudder to keep the airplane fuselage parallel to the runway centerline. Pressures depend on the airplane but it's a balancing act.
Simply keep the runway in one spot on the windshield and the nose of the airplane under the runway end. No big corrections. Hold her steady with pressure on the controls.
Wing low technique is basically a slip so you will need to carry some power.
Cheat a little on the side of the runway centerline into the wind if needed.
Hold the correction right to touchdown on the upwind wheel first.
Then keep enough aileron to keep the wing down while you are rolling out.
Taking off keep the nosewheel down till you have enough speed to fly.
Hold full aileron into the wind at the start of the roll and take some out as you pick up speed.
When you are fast enough just pull back a little and she should pop right up.
When you are sure you are off the ground to stay release some rudder and aileron so the airplane will crab nose into the wind.
Less drag and you can climb better. Just angle the nose enough to keep from drifting off centerline and keep the ball centered.
Taxing back to takeoff just use the same correction as when you landed but add down elevator.
There are fancier things like taking off diagonal on the runway and you can put the flaps up right after landing. Depends on the airplane.
Crabbing and kicking it straight at touchdown is good for 707's.
Not much good for Piston singles.
I'll probably get some argument on that.
Go out on a good steady crosswind day and try flying some 2 mile finals on centerline with an instructor. A couple of those and you will have it figured out. Crab a ways and then transition to wing low about a mile out. Notice the difference in sight picture between crab and wing low. The nose will NOT be lined up with the runway in a crab. As you get better you can transition from crab to wing low on short final. Your leg won't get so tired.
Biggest problem is people correct and then release, correct and then release. They can't just keep things lined up. Or they release all the correction on touchdown and you head for the rhubarb patch.
LSA or business jet, it's all the same.
Simply keep the runway in one spot on the windshield and the nose of the airplane under the runway end. No big corrections. Hold her steady with pressure on the controls.
Wing low technique is basically a slip so you will need to carry some power.
Cheat a little on the side of the runway centerline into the wind if needed.
Hold the correction right to touchdown on the upwind wheel first.
Then keep enough aileron to keep the wing down while you are rolling out.
Taking off keep the nosewheel down till you have enough speed to fly.
Hold full aileron into the wind at the start of the roll and take some out as you pick up speed.
When you are fast enough just pull back a little and she should pop right up.
When you are sure you are off the ground to stay release some rudder and aileron so the airplane will crab nose into the wind.
Less drag and you can climb better. Just angle the nose enough to keep from drifting off centerline and keep the ball centered.
Taxing back to takeoff just use the same correction as when you landed but add down elevator.
There are fancier things like taking off diagonal on the runway and you can put the flaps up right after landing. Depends on the airplane.
Crabbing and kicking it straight at touchdown is good for 707's.
Not much good for Piston singles.
I'll probably get some argument on that.
Go out on a good steady crosswind day and try flying some 2 mile finals on centerline with an instructor. A couple of those and you will have it figured out. Crab a ways and then transition to wing low about a mile out. Notice the difference in sight picture between crab and wing low. The nose will NOT be lined up with the runway in a crab. As you get better you can transition from crab to wing low on short final. Your leg won't get so tired.
Biggest problem is people correct and then release, correct and then release. They can't just keep things lined up. Or they release all the correction on touchdown and you head for the rhubarb patch.
LSA or business jet, it's all the same.
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cvlngineer
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:25 pm
- Location: Central Texas
I used this exercise, and it helped me the most out of any other that I tried when I was learning cross wind landings.CharlieTango wrote:jake,
...during low flight over the runway, intentionally drift from centerline to left runway edge then back to centerline, the right runway edge and back to centerline. if you can demonstrate that skill you probably won't be challenged much by x-wind landings
cvlngineer
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ArionAv8or
- Posts: 271
- Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:42 am
I have not tried that exercise but I am definitely going to practice that in the future. Thank you for your suggestion.cvlngineer wrote:I used this exercise, and it helped me the most out of any other that I tried when I was learning cross wind landings.CharlieTango wrote:jake,
...during low flight over the runway, intentionally drift from centerline to left runway edge then back to centerline, the right runway edge and back to centerline. if you can demonstrate that skill you probably won't be challenged much by x-wind landings
cvlngineer
10 to 15
My technique to teach this is to never use the word crosswind. It intimidates and makes the student nervous.
I do the training in a way so it doesn't dawn on the student that they have done a beautiful crosswind landing until we are parked and discussing it.
We do the first ten to fifteen crosswind approaches to a 5 foot altitude at 1.3 Vso and my instructions are to add just enough power to maintain 5 feet and fly level, all the way down the runway at that height, and DON'T allow it to sink. Add more throttle if needed. At the far end, we add power and climb out.
The first couple will be in a crab, at 5 ft high. On the next 8 or 10, I start emphatically saying "more rudder" "more rudder" until the fuselage is in perfect alignment with the centerline. The student will UNKNOWINGLY be putting in opposite aileron to maintain the centerline and therefore, the upwind wing will be low, without them realizing it.
On # 10 or 12. After we are level, stable, and parallel to the centerline at 5 ft, with the upwind wing low, I tell them to decrease throttle 100 RPM but maintain 5 ft.
What this does is cause them to gradually be feeding in more elevator as speed decreases, in an attempt to stay at 5 ft. When the plane starts losing lift, it descends to 4 ft. They add more elevator. The plane slows more. They add more elevator to try to maintain 5 ft....etc.
Then right at stall airspeed, the upwind tire will touch, dragging speed down more. The student is surprised and pulls back more, usually a lot.
This plants both mains and keeps the nosewheel high (if equipped).
Won't bounce because speed is too low.
If a taildragger, it results in a perfect 3-point landing. Works every time even with the most difficult students.
I do the training in a way so it doesn't dawn on the student that they have done a beautiful crosswind landing until we are parked and discussing it.
We do the first ten to fifteen crosswind approaches to a 5 foot altitude at 1.3 Vso and my instructions are to add just enough power to maintain 5 feet and fly level, all the way down the runway at that height, and DON'T allow it to sink. Add more throttle if needed. At the far end, we add power and climb out.
The first couple will be in a crab, at 5 ft high. On the next 8 or 10, I start emphatically saying "more rudder" "more rudder" until the fuselage is in perfect alignment with the centerline. The student will UNKNOWINGLY be putting in opposite aileron to maintain the centerline and therefore, the upwind wing will be low, without them realizing it.
On # 10 or 12. After we are level, stable, and parallel to the centerline at 5 ft, with the upwind wing low, I tell them to decrease throttle 100 RPM but maintain 5 ft.
What this does is cause them to gradually be feeding in more elevator as speed decreases, in an attempt to stay at 5 ft. When the plane starts losing lift, it descends to 4 ft. They add more elevator. The plane slows more. They add more elevator to try to maintain 5 ft....etc.
Then right at stall airspeed, the upwind tire will touch, dragging speed down more. The student is surprised and pulls back more, usually a lot.
This plants both mains and keeps the nosewheel high (if equipped).
Won't bounce because speed is too low.
If a taildragger, it results in a perfect 3-point landing. Works every time even with the most difficult students.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
Re: 10 to 15
Bryan, are you saying that none of your students managed to execute your instructions literally maintaining 5 feet all the way into the stall? ;)bryancobb wrote: ...After we are level, stable, and parallel to the centerline at 5 ft, with the upwind wing low, I tell them to decrease throttle 100 RPM but maintain 5 ft.
What this does is cause them to gradually be feeding in more elevator as speed decreases, in an attempt to stay at 5 ft. When the plane starts losing lift, it descends to 4 ft. They add more elevator. The plane slows more. They add more elevator to try to maintain 5 ft....etc.
Then right at stall airspeed, the upwind tire will touch...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cov46CPqbLA
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cvlngineer
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 7:25 pm
- Location: Central Texas
Re: 10 to 15
bryancobb wrote:My technique to teach this is to never use the word crosswind. It intimidates and makes the student nervous.
I do the training in a way so it doesn't dawn on the student that they have done a beautiful crosswind landing until we are parked and discussing it.
We do the first ten to fifteen crosswind approaches to a 5 foot altitude at 1.3 Vso and my instructions are to add just enough power to maintain 5 feet and fly level, all the way down the runway at that height, and DON'T allow it to sink. Add more throttle if needed. At the far end, we add power and climb out.
The first couple will be in a crab, at 5 ft high. On the next 8 or 10, I start emphatically saying "more rudder" "more rudder" until the fuselage is in perfect alignment with the centerline. The student will UNKNOWINGLY be putting in opposite aileron to maintain the centerline and therefore, the upwind wing will be low, without them realizing it.
On # 10 or 12. After we are level, stable, and parallel to the centerline at 5 ft, with the upwind wing low, I tell them to decrease throttle 100 RPM but maintain 5 ft.
What this does is cause them to gradually be feeding in more elevator as speed decreases, in an attempt to stay at 5 ft. When the plane starts losing lift, it descends to 4 ft. They add more elevator. The plane slows more. They add more elevator to try to maintain 5 ft....etc.
Then right at stall airspeed, the upwind tire will touch, dragging speed down more. The student is surprised and pulls back more, usually a lot.
This plants both mains and keeps the nosewheel high (if equipped).
Won't bounce because speed is too low.
If a taildragger, it results in a perfect 3-point landing. Works every time even with the most difficult students.
That sounds like an excellent way to teach cross wind landings. That would have probably saved me several hours of trips around the pattern! If and when I earn my CFI status, I will definitely use this method! I know it would have helped me a lot.
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Re: 10 to 15
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I AM SAYING. They are TRYING to do what I ask. It just so happens that it's physically impossible to do it without adding power. (Which we WON'T do) We are flying at 5 ft at a power setting LESS than what is required to maintain straight and level at minimum controllable airspeed. And while trying to do the impossible, their automatic actions just happen to be EXACTLY what's needed to grease it in.tu16 wrote:bryancobb wrote: Bryan, are you saying that none of your students managed to execute your instructions literally maintaining 5 feet all the way into the stall?
The results is.. "SURPRISE, we are on the ground."
Now ... during debrief, I let them know that using up a lot of runway, like THIS TECHNIQUE DOES, is NOT how they need to do crosswind landings in thefuture. I tell them that this is only to develop confidence and get a HABIT developed.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
Re: 10 to 15
They are probably not so quick on elevator... ;) While at this lower power setting previous S&L flight may not be sustainable but it should be possible to maintain S&L for a short time after reducing power by compensating loss of lift by increasing AoA all the way into full stall after which abrupt drop to runway would happen and when cross-controlled (as when slipping) it can actually drop a wing-first to a runway, which is actually downright scary, especially in a low-wing... Happened to me once during training :) Costed me two weeks to regain confidence and flattened somewhat my landings... :)bryancobb wrote:tu16 wrote:...They are TRYING to do what I ask. It just so happens that it's physically impossible to do it without adding power. (Which we WON'T do) We are flying at 5 ft at a power setting LESS than what is required to maintain straight and level at minimum controllable airspeed...bryancobb wrote: Bryan, are you saying that none of your students managed to execute your instructions literally maintaining 5 feet all the way into the stall? ;)
Said that, I do envy you guys, real pilots, who do it easly and you have all my respect, - I could certainly use some more training in crosswind landings - went out today specifically to work on crosswind landings - 10G16 across the runway, had couple real ugly landings and more than a couple of not so nice ones.... Cross-wind gusts right prior touchdown, when already low and slow I find tough to overcome - I need to be more trigger-happy on a throttle and more wired for a go-around than I am today...
Theory vs Practice
You are right. In THEORY the student "SHOULD" be able to stay at five feet if the right amount of elevator is kept, right up until a stall, an ker-plunk!
In PRACTICE, what always happens is the student is reluctant (or slow) to add sufficient elevator and the 5 feet gently becomes ZERO feet so the upwind tire touches. This instantly drags the airspeed down a couple of knots so then the other tire touches which subtract a couple more knots.
By now you are below stall speed so there's never a bounce.
Keep in mind, this is not how the student's crosswind landings will be done for the checkride. This only gives them early confidence in crosswind landings and develops skills, techniques and habits that will TRANSFER to their NORMAL crosswind landings.
Skills, Techniques, Habits honed during this exercise:
* Keeping upwind wing low
* Sight picture forward for perfect runway alignment
* NOT touching down in a crab
* Sight picture for flare height
* Touching down on upwind wheel first
* Being comfortable cross-controlling when near the ground
* Avoid bouncing all the time
* A feel for what speed the airplane quits flying
* Keeping attention outside and 200'+ down the runway
* Always being prepared to go around if things aren't right
* Don't be nervous about crosswind landings
In PRACTICE, what always happens is the student is reluctant (or slow) to add sufficient elevator and the 5 feet gently becomes ZERO feet so the upwind tire touches. This instantly drags the airspeed down a couple of knots so then the other tire touches which subtract a couple more knots.
By now you are below stall speed so there's never a bounce.
Keep in mind, this is not how the student's crosswind landings will be done for the checkride. This only gives them early confidence in crosswind landings and develops skills, techniques and habits that will TRANSFER to their NORMAL crosswind landings.
Skills, Techniques, Habits honed during this exercise:
* Keeping upwind wing low
* Sight picture forward for perfect runway alignment
* NOT touching down in a crab
* Sight picture for flare height
* Touching down on upwind wheel first
* Being comfortable cross-controlling when near the ground
* Avoid bouncing all the time
* A feel for what speed the airplane quits flying
* Keeping attention outside and 200'+ down the runway
* Always being prepared to go around if things aren't right
* Don't be nervous about crosswind landings
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
Re: Theory vs Practice
;) Easy for you to say, Bryan! ;) You bet I'm nervous... ;)bryancobb wrote: ...
* Always being prepared to go around if things aren't right
* Don't be nervous about crosswind landings
These ill-timed crosswind gusts got me all the time... Or to be exact - 3 ot 13 landings yesterday I had that bad timing and bad result... ;)
The scenario usually goes like that - after countering all the jolts, sinks. rolls etc. on the way down the final in a rough gusty air I'm finally in a cleaner air right near the ground all lined up and starightened up along the centerline , wing-low, in a flair attitude, slowing down with couple of feet off the runway, left wheel is about to touch... textbook. And then - sudden float while I'm helplessly watching a speedy lateral drift across a runway for a fraction of second and deposited with side-loaded touchdown on the right side of a runway, sickening short side-skip and shameful hasty roll-out back to a centerline, thainking God for a wider runway and not failing main gear and tires...
Being in a low-wing with the wing already precariosly lowered to a runway and being low and slow, I'm hesitant to counteract by hastilly dropping wing even further. And being a moment from and focused on a flair and expected good touchdown mentally committed me to a landing and I find myself not even thinking about hitting a throttle and a go-around instead of letting the crosswind gust at touchdown to float me off from a centerline, and possibly - off the runway...
Any suggestions how to engrave anytime when the nature throws a curveball - the go-around option into my aging not-a-spring-chicken-anymore brain? :) Surviving couple uglies like that and the option would just pop-up in the right moment? :)
Maybe??
Maybe your instructor is giving you lessons when the wind is worse than what an early student should be exposed to??
Until your CONFIDENCE gets up there, my opinion is you should be limited in training to say 5 to 8 kts of smooth steady crosswind with no gusts.
When "nature throws a curve ball" full throttle & go around. You don't scratch the plane that way.
Until your CONFIDENCE gets up there, my opinion is you should be limited in training to say 5 to 8 kts of smooth steady crosswind with no gusts.
When "nature throws a curve ball" full throttle & go around. You don't scratch the plane that way.
Bryan Cobb
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
Sport Pilot CFI
Commercial/Instrument Airplane
Commercial Rotorcraft Helicopter
Manufacturing Engineer II, Meggitt Airframe Systems, Fuel Systems & Composites Group
Cartersville, Ga
[email protected]
Re: Maybe??
My instructor did teach me crosswind basics in smooth 5-9kts cross-air. Now, when I'm not a student anymore but a low time pilot - I guess I am to discover and learn much of the finer points of the the art of flying just by accident ;) (pun intended ;) )bryancobb wrote:Maybe your instructor is giving you lessons when the wind is worse than what an early student should be exposed to??
Until your CONFIDENCE gets up there, my opinion is you should be limited in training to say 5 to 8 kts of smooth steady crosswind with no gusts.
When "nature throws a curve ball" full throttle & go around. You don't scratch the plane that way.
Somehow I find that everytime when my confidence goes "up there", there's always a humbling and potentially scary lesson/revelation in store for me from aviation gods... ;) I do continue flying with the instructor from time to time to work on areas that I discover may need some further development/advancement.
Right now it may be a skill of being able to go around at any moment w/o fully commiting myself to landing until the plane is safely on the ground.... Not sure how instructor can help me with this. I probably need to come up with my own here.