John and Martha King Held By Gunpoint Over Aircraft Tail Num

[ap23ap]

John and Martha King Held By Gunpoint Over Aircraft Tail Number

http://avstop.com/news_august_2010/john ... number.htm

[ibgarrett]

Yeah - I read this on the AOPA email yesterday and was needless to say a taken a bit back... I don't know John and Martha King other than seeing their training ads, but it made me wonder what it would be like if I flew into an airport as Joe Schmoe and was greeted by the clueless cops...

[Jim Stewart]

Can you imagine the 5 minutes of sheer terror they must have gone through as they tried to think of the FAR that they might have violated to get such a response, and how they would handle the fallout that it would create for their business?

[ibgarrett]

I smell a new video coming... "How to avoid getting busted by the cops"...

[tadel001]

I had a very similar experience years ago. We left ohio in a Barron and the ATC kept getting our n-number wrong. When we landed at Frederick at night, a helicopter blocked us on the taxiway and police cars surrounded us. We were pulled out a gun point, forced to lay on the cold ramp while the police conducted their business. Even my mother who was picking us and waiting in the parking lot was searched.

The end result was that the screw up in n-number trigged an alert for an C-210 out of San Diego with armed and dangerous tagged on it. they lost the plane over the midwest and then we popped up. They wouldn't correct the n-number because the assumption we slipped up using the wrong number.

In the end the police were professional. They were aggressive for a reason, their own safety. They did their job and when they were done, we thanked them for their service.

I disagree strongly with the King's and Fuller's reaction. Yes, the flow of information is not always great but I don't see large budgets available to take care of ensuring 100% accuracy with information. To bash the police for their efforts is absurd. It is like the idiot that gives attitude to the cop for pulling you over for speeding. You broke the law, he did his job, and you are going to be a jerk to him??

The police did what they thought was right. Assuming by looks that someone is harmless is not what keeps officers alive. The Kings should thank the police for their efforts in trying to locate a stolen plane.

[bshort]

tadel001 hit the nail right on the head. The Police have a specific response when dealing with felony situations. To assume that the Police should have an "N" number app on their phone is laughable at best and really wouldn't do anything to have heldped the situation. If everyone was honest, and never lied, we would never have these types of situations. But they do.

If blame lies anywhere, it is on the agency that allowed the "N" number of a stolen aircraft to be recycled and re-used. Once an "N" number is associated with a stolen aircraft, it should never be reused. This is common sense.

[bryancobb]

I landed a light helicopter and a gas station/restaurant back in 1997 to meet some friends for lunch. They provided service for me on the ground to make sure I could land safely.

A businessman across the street called the local police. The police man arrived to arrest me. ( I did not inform him I was a State Trooper )
I kindly told him I would comply but that he should MAKE CERTAIN he was acting correctly by having his dispatcher call the FAA because I did nothing against the law.

After more than an hour and making me late for work, he told me I was free to go. Just like the Kings... no apology.

After I then informed him that I was a Law Enforcement Officer, he became angry and said I humiliated him and if I had told him earlier, he would not have wasted an hour of his valuable time with me.

This raised questions in my mind! Why was the hour of his time WASTED on another cop when it would be PRUDENTLY SPENT on an Average Joe?

I worked several years as a State Trooper before leaving the patrol. I witnessed "The Thin Blue Line" mentality in action. When you become a cop, EVERYONE is on the other side of the Thin Blue Line from you except firemen, emergency room personnel, and paramedics. PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE LINE are the enemy. You must control all of them for your safety.

I've been away from law enforcement for 10 years now. I am careful to never interact with them as a violator or suspect because I'm not sure I will be treated as being on their side of the line any more. They have dominion over us and I realize that. I can honestly say that even though I am a law-abiding citizen, I am fearful of cops in general, because their badges give some of them a level of ultimate control that their degree of intelligence doesn't warrant.

[Jim Stewart]

Bryan, you nailed it.

The sad thing is that it didn't used to be like that. There was a time when civilians went out of their way to help a cop, and a cop assumed that most civilians were on their side and weren't potential or actual felons. I think the loss of that mutual respect is one of the great losses of our time.

The Kings' day was totally fsked up because of poor law enforcement. They deserve an apology. Perhaps next time a situation like this comes up the local police should tell the FAA to get a federal marshal to do the arrest. Maybe the checks and balances would work better.

[tadel001]

I disagree with both Jim and Bryan. Not disrespect to you. I work with over 134 different law enforcement agencies and I think those statements are not accurate. I could a long list of examples. There are some bad apples but the vast majority have good hearts, good values and want to do the right thing.

[ibgarrett]

Not to add to the mix (but I'm going to. )

I think there could be a long list made of both good AND bad cops. In the Denver metro area the cops here are having a tough go of it because of several videotaped beatings they have applied to citizens where the force was completely unjustifiable and then the cops lied on their reports that were filed. Additionally there have been several people who have died while in custody here recently simply through neglect. Granted those weren't beat cops, but the lack of empathy for someone asking for help is certainly a problem.

Does that mean that all these cops are bad? Nope - but I think I prudence in approaching a cop is justified these days, especially if they aren't in a safe or controllable environment.

As for the Kings - I think they offered up some great advice on how to handle situations like this going forward. We'll just see if some of that trickles down.

[ArionAv8or]

In my industry I work with LEOs on a regular basis so I will refrain from the discussion. All I will say is that ibgarrett got it right with "I think there could be a long list made of both good AND bad cops". That same list can be made for people in general, I just happen to see with a lot more of the bad ones.

On one good note I read that the police dept. issued an apology to the Kings. John King is a very smart businessman so I am sure he will turn this lemon into lemonade in one form or another.

[bryancobb]

I am comforted that the Dept. apologized.

Now what can be done for future prevention?

The FAA Could do two logical things:

1) Publish an Advisory Circular and Instructional Publication to be sent to all law enforcement organizations, explaining the ins-and-outs and peculiarities that apply to aircraft ownership, operation, and registration. All law enforcement personnel should be proficient at looking up Aircraft Registration information online, or be able to identify a pilot's license, ratings, and medical certificate.

2) If feasable, do not recycle N-Numbers at all. I don't think the FAA always knows when an aircraft has been involved in a law enforcement matter, so they may not be able to avoid recycling just N-Numbers of "in-question" aircraft.

[ibgarrett]

LEOs?

[Bill]

Law Enforcement Officer

[ibgarrett]

Ah - thanks... I hadn't a clue.