Will we ever get the 1600lb gross weight limit???

[drseti]

the PiperSport has right at 600 pounds of useful load. Fill it with 30 gallons (full) and you've still got 420 pounds of payload. Not sure how big you are, but that's two 210 pound people. Not small by any means.

Take a look not just at the advertised basic empty weight, but rather at the weight as equipped. The SportCruiser I flew (with normal avionics) weighed in at 806 pounds empty. That translates to a 514 pound useful load. Add full fuel, and you get 334 pounds payload. So, two FAA-standard 170 pound adults will over-gross the plane, and that's with no baggage. So, the 40 pound main baggage allowance, and the two 44-pound wing lockers, don't really do you any good unless you're flying solo.

[KSCessnaDriver]

Take a look not just at the advertised basic empty weight, but rather at the weight as equipped. The SportCruiser I flew (with normal avionics) weighed in at 806 pounds empty. That translates to a 514 pound useful load. Add full fuel, and you get 334 pounds payload. So, two FAA-standard 170 pound adults will over-gross the plane, and that's with no baggage. So, the 40 pound main baggage allowance, and the two 44-pound wing lockers, don't really do you any good unless you're flying solo.

But that's no different than a 172 or PA28. Nothing built today is able to fill the fuel tanks and the seats. Its just a fact of life that people have to realize prior to buying an airplane. Plus, as you said, all those fancy toys up front hurt how much you can carry. Even something like a 182 is tough to fill all the way up, due to landing weight constrains.

[dstclair]

The specs are minimal equippage. By the time you equip the SC with what is listed for Piper they all will exceed 800 lbs by a good margin. I know of one SC that tips the scale at 847 lbs. I'm familiar with 2 other SCs that are in the 820 lbs range. I'd think 820 lbs would be a better guess than the 720 lbs being advertised.

If you go with FAA-standard adults at 170 lbs (is that still the standard?) then you still have plenty of range (~25 gallons). If you have a couple guys that are bit more than standard, you eat into the fuel. Add in a non-training cross-country flight for two and 50-60 lbs of stuff, you eat into the fuel some more.

My point was, the SC as is works for Piper with no need to increase MTOW.

[drseti]

Nothing built today is able to fill the fuel tanks and the seats.

Too true. My SportStar Plus is 745 pounds empty. Its max GTOW is only 1268 (about to be increased to the LSA maximum of 1320 pounds, by complying with a Service Bulletin, but that's what it is from the factory). So, useful load is now 523 pounds. Not too bad. Add 31.2 gals of fuel, and you're down to 335 pounds payload. I weigh 160, so I can carry a 175 pound student with full fuel (and no baggage). Any student weighing more than that, I have to offload fuel. Not a problem for the average lesson. To play it safe, I announce this on my website:

"Certain weight, height, and health restrictions apply. Persons weighing more than 200 pounds can be accommodated only by prior arrangement. We regret that our aircraft cannot safely carry passengers weighing in excess of 250 pounds."

I bought the plane to use as a trainer, so baggage isn't really an issue. But, if my wife and I decided to take a trip together, and carry the 55 max baggage allowed, we have to reduce fuel to around 15 gals -- oops, I guess I just gave away my wife's weight. That's still 2.5 hours of endurance, with VFR reserves, but it's a far cry from the 7+ hours that Evektor advertises. Clearly, one has to think about these tradeoffs. As CessnaDriver says, that's true in any plane.

[MikeM]

But when will LSAs be spread out to flight schools? And I do mean MANY flight schools.

Now that Cessna has delivered its first SkyCrasher, and Piper has acquired the SportCrusher, I think you're about to see a significant increase in LSA penetration into flight schools (At least, I hope so...)

Ha Ha Ha!!! Ha Ha Ha!!! You're killing me!!!

Very funny, how you say the LSA's names in the wrong way.

The guys at the local airport have some good names for the Cessna Light Sport plane. Their favorite was FlyCatcher although since the spin problems came to light the new favorite is GroundCatcher.

[Cub flyer]

I won't buy or consider either one because of the price. Used in a few years maybe.

If Cessna and Piper wanted to really kill the old airplane value they just need to stop producing parts.

[KSCessnaDriver]

Too true. My SportStar Plus is 745 pounds empty. Its max GTOW is only 1268 (about to be increased to the LSA maximum of 1320 pounds, by complying with a Service Bulletin, but that's what it is from the factory). So, useful load is now 523 pounds. Not too bad. Add 31.2 gals of fuel, and you're down to 335 pounds payload. I weigh 160, so I can carry a 175 pound student with full fuel (and no baggage). Any student weighing more than that, I have to offload fuel. Not a problem for the average lesson. To play it safe, I announce this on my website:

"Certain weight, height, and health restrictions apply. Persons weighing more than 200 pounds can be accommodated only by prior arrangement. We regret that our aircraft cannot safely carry passengers weighing in excess of 250 pounds."

I did quite a bit of traveling this summer in a DA-40, and even in it was tough at times to put more than 2 people, a few bags and full fuel in. With me I don't think it would have been possible to put 4 people in the plane, and legal fuel, and be under MTOW. If you really need a plane that can take a load, the best thing to do is find one of the early model PA28's or C172/182's. They seem to be able to carry more, due to a lack of lots of sound proofing materials and a bunch of other "goodies"

[scottj]

Speaking as a fight instructor, I really need an airplane that has more than 2 1/2 hours of fuel capacity and payload. I do not want to spend time after each lesson gassing up for the next one. It is bad enough that I have to do it every 8 hours in my CTsw.

[CharlieTango]

my old ctsw (early 2006), combined with the light weight of my girlfriend (125lbs) puts me in the "sweet spot." combine that with the low price of a used ctsw and you have quite a deal.

empty but well equipped 719lb
pilot 180lb
passenger 125 lb
7 hours of fuel 200lb
baggage 96lbs

[ibgarrett]

I don't think my wife would be happy with me getting a 125lb girlfriend to ride with me rather than her...

Our new workout motto - for every lb of weight we drop, we can get another 1/10th of an hour in the plane... of course for ever 6lbs we can loose, we get a whole 'nother gallon of gas.

Brian

[drseti]

Speaking as a fight instructor, (snip)
I do not want to spend time after each lesson gassing up for the next one.

But don't you see the obvious advantage of that? You have the student fuel the plane after each lesson, under your supervision, and charge him or her for the ground instruction!

[Cub flyer]

Maybe clean the windows too? I've been trying to get my students to wax the 172 but so far no dice.

[scottj]

While on the subject of cleaning... We do have each student debug the entire airplane after every lesson (in bug season). Start with a clean airplane, and they don't mind doing it.

I look at this way... teaching, and expecting, them to clean the airplane is part of the instruction process. We are teaching them to care for the equipment.

Peer pressure works wonders. The instructors are the ones I have trouble with keeping it clean. As a student myself, it used to drive me nuts to clean my airplane before a lesson just so I could see out the windshield.

A spray bottle of soapy water, two towels (one for windows only), and it takes 2 minutes post flight. We use composiclean, with carnuba wax built in, so yes... our students wax daily.

Yes, we also "teach" our students how to refuel an airplane. For the most part, they do all the fueling. I had a shoulder injury this past year so they were always willing to help me. Now, they just do it without being asked. It is interesting to note how many pilots pull into the airport and have no clue how to refuel their airplane (i.e. students visiting on cross countries).

[Cub flyer]

In the back seat of the cub I was watching the mud fly up over the wing struts and against the bottom of the wing. top and bottom of the tail and aft fuselage are covered also. I might have a tough sell on cleaning every flight.

At least the windshield stayed clean with no bugs this time of year.

I've been really thinking of building an airplane wash bay.

[drseti]

I've been really thinking of building an airplane wash bay.

Heck, Charlie, with all the rain we had here this morning, you should have just gone flying!