Hello,
I am currently in the process of getting my PPL and getting close to the check ride at this point. I have a question in regards to factory built airplanes and kit built. For example Jabiru makes the J230 and sells the J430 as a kit. It is the same exact plane except the J430 has the 2 additional seats. My question is can you buy the J230 and then at a later date install the 2 rear seats and convert over to the experimental category? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Jeffrey
Factory built / experimental question
Moderator: drseti
No, you can't do this, at least in the way you intend. There are multiple experimental categories. The one you are talking about, the one that is for personal use, is the Experimental Amateur Built. The rule for EAB expressly forbids converting a non-amateur built plane to this status. The other designations for experimental are used for things like testing new planes before certification, developing STCs and such. Such planes have severe restrictions on there use.
Further, I think the 230 is an LSA. An LSA can't even be modified with an STC, it requires manufacturer approval. In the case of adding 2 more seats, you would break the LSA rule, so there is no way you could get permission from Jabiru to do that.
Ron
Further, I think the 230 is an LSA. An LSA can't even be modified with an STC, it requires manufacturer approval. In the case of adding 2 more seats, you would break the LSA rule, so there is no way you could get permission from Jabiru to do that.
Ron
Thanks for the quick reply....I didn't think it would be as easy as I hoped it would be.
"No, you can't do this, at least in the way you intend"
Do you know of a way that it could accomplished? The ultimate goal is not having to build from scratch, they do offer builder assist programs but I am not sure how that will change with the kit build talk changes going on now.
"No, you can't do this, at least in the way you intend"
Do you know of a way that it could accomplished? The ultimate goal is not having to build from scratch, they do offer builder assist programs but I am not sure how that will change with the kit build talk changes going on now.
You are not the first to try to find a way around the rules. I've never heard on anybody actually doing it...
I'm not familiar with Jabiru kits. In general there are two kinds of kits Experimental Amateur Built and ELSA. The EAB kits usually come in "regular" and "quickbuild". Regular is a pile of parts you have to put together. Quickbuild has most of the parts already attached to one aonther, but there is still a lot of work to do. The FAA "51% rule" requires that you have substantial work to do with a quickbuild. These kits almost never come with instruments or an engine - even more work (and money) figuring these out.
ELSA kits are available from some manufacturers. There is no 51% rule for ELSA so the kits can be as complete as the vendor wants to make them. I haven't kept up on the status of the ELSA rule (I'm building an EAB). My impression is there are many more restrictions on the completed plane than on an EAB -where there are basically no restrictions for the original builder. I think a completed ELSA kit must be built to the kit manufacturer's specifications and can't be modified outside of the LSA rule (4 seats would not be allowed, for instance).
Finally, if you build an EAB, you personally are the plane manufacturer as far as the FAA is concerned. If there are problems with it, it's on your head. I'm not sure how this works with ELSA, but I'd think the kit maker certifies you have a safe plane if built to plans. (Definitely NOT the case with an EAB kit).
Ron
I'm not familiar with Jabiru kits. In general there are two kinds of kits Experimental Amateur Built and ELSA. The EAB kits usually come in "regular" and "quickbuild". Regular is a pile of parts you have to put together. Quickbuild has most of the parts already attached to one aonther, but there is still a lot of work to do. The FAA "51% rule" requires that you have substantial work to do with a quickbuild. These kits almost never come with instruments or an engine - even more work (and money) figuring these out.
ELSA kits are available from some manufacturers. There is no 51% rule for ELSA so the kits can be as complete as the vendor wants to make them. I haven't kept up on the status of the ELSA rule (I'm building an EAB). My impression is there are many more restrictions on the completed plane than on an EAB -where there are basically no restrictions for the original builder. I think a completed ELSA kit must be built to the kit manufacturer's specifications and can't be modified outside of the LSA rule (4 seats would not be allowed, for instance).
Finally, if you build an EAB, you personally are the plane manufacturer as far as the FAA is concerned. If there are problems with it, it's on your head. I'm not sure how this works with ELSA, but I'd think the kit maker certifies you have a safe plane if built to plans. (Definitely NOT the case with an EAB kit).
Ron
If I understand your question, you essentially want to buy a J430 prebuilt or add 2 seats to a J230, making it into a J430. You don't want to do all of the build yourself, correct?
If this is the case, IMHO, the simplest method to accomplish your goals is to buy a completed J430 or J230 kit (EAB NOT ELSA or SLSA). Often, people sell their kits after finishing them and you can pick them up complete for little more than the cost of the parts. Make sure that it is an Experimental-Amatuer Built and NOT an ELSA or an SLSA. The only way ELSAs and SLSAs could be converted the way you want would be to turn them into EABs, which the FAA is VERY VERY reluctant to do.
Another option is to buy an almost completed kit and finish the last part yourself. I would advise holding off on using a builder's assist program, as the FAA has just tightened the EAB regs primarily to stop people who are abusing the program with builder's assist centers. Wait until the rules become more clear before doing any kind of builder's assist with an EAB, or you run the risk of the FAA refusing to give you an airworthiness certificate for your plane and ending up with an $80K lawn ornament.
If this is the case, IMHO, the simplest method to accomplish your goals is to buy a completed J430 or J230 kit (EAB NOT ELSA or SLSA). Often, people sell their kits after finishing them and you can pick them up complete for little more than the cost of the parts. Make sure that it is an Experimental-Amatuer Built and NOT an ELSA or an SLSA. The only way ELSAs and SLSAs could be converted the way you want would be to turn them into EABs, which the FAA is VERY VERY reluctant to do.
Another option is to buy an almost completed kit and finish the last part yourself. I would advise holding off on using a builder's assist program, as the FAA has just tightened the EAB regs primarily to stop people who are abusing the program with builder's assist centers. Wait until the rules become more clear before doing any kind of builder's assist with an EAB, or you run the risk of the FAA refusing to give you an airworthiness certificate for your plane and ending up with an $80K lawn ornament.