LSA touring... the realities?

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drseti
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Re: Traveling cross-country by plane takes many forms...

Post by drseti »

Jack Tyler wrote:FWIW the LSA I'm looking at will carry 2 180# crew, 4 hrs + of fuel, fly at/near 120 kts and handle 50# of luggage in a sizable bay. I think that's about as good as one can expect within the LSA class.
I agree with your numbers, Jack. Except for the cruise speed (105 is more like it for me), that correlates pretty well with my SportStar. However, "sizable bay" is maybe a stretch -- I can get in all my camping gear, but not my guitar! :cry: (Guess I'll have to buy a Martin Backpacker.)
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Hambone
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Post by Hambone »

Fantastic information... thanks to all for sharing.

I used to own a vintage Volkswagen campervan, and wherever I travelled, other VW campervan owners were instantly friends. Judging by this forum, I get the impression the aviation fraternity is similar!

Jack - which LSA are you considering? I'm really looking forward to crawling all over the LSAs at Sun n Fun next month!
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Post by drseti »

Hambone wrote:I used to own a vintage Volkswagen camper van,
I had a 1971 VW Westphalia Campmobile, back went they weren't vintage.
and wherever I travelled, other owners were instantly friends. Judging by this forum, I get the impression the aviation fraternity is similar!
True fact. A couple of years ago, I camped at Sun-n-fun next to a King Air. The guy hauled out of that monster twin a big tent, picnic table, a bunch of folding chairs, a generator, laptop computer with DVD player, digital projector, movie screen, kerosene space heater, and coolers full of snacks and beverages -- set it all up, and invited everyone in the campground to watch movies every night of the fly-in! Aviation is indeed a great community.
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Post by Cub flyer »

Sorry this is rambling. Just thoughts on travel

When I was a kid we flew our Piper Pacer to Oshkosh , Florida and Texas a few times from PA. Family of four with all camping gear for a week. OSH is easy camping but tent and gear anyway. Pacer is 100 lb baggage plus cabin stuffing around us. As we got bigger we switched over to the Stinson Gullwing. Still traveling self contained. Then someone would follow with a truck and extra gear. My wife and I started taking ourselves in a Stinson 108, Then Tripacer. Two airplanes and one truck. Then two airplanes became a Queen air. Later after we had kids we've gone with Two Gullwings hauling 10 people and one full truck of gear.

Last year we were back at Oshkosh with our two kids in the same Piper Pacer I flew to OSH in when I was a kid. Full circle except I was in the left seat.

Most of these trips were all low and at LSA speeds. No problem. Just fly until the sky looks ugly. Land and wait it out. Navigation is easy. Just fly point to point on the map, monitor GPS map and keep major turns or destination in the GPS. Never bothered to enter a flight plan in the GPS. It's a wonderful gadget.

If it's a long trip the weather will never be fine the whole trip. Can you time it to spend the night somewhere while the bad weather passes over. Going west it's pretty quick to pass over. Going east you may come in a position with a warm front ahead moving slow that just won't get out of the way for days.

I've flown VFR from PA to California without a problem. All over the US including AK. A VFR LSA is fine. IFR can be easier but it takes more restraint to be able to determine when not to go.

What you take along can vary depending on how creative you are with packing. I'd suggest a good look at the REI catalog and other backpacking outfitters. It makes a big difference if you are camping at locations or staying in motels.

Plan to arrive each night before closing time. It stinks to get to a deserted airport. I've spent the night under and in airplanes many times. In Oklahoma there are blue laws or something so if you travel on sunday nothing seemed to be open. After dark plan on using a tower controlled airport to be able to get to a hotel unless there is something you know to be within walking distance.

The time of year changes things also. If you tie out for the night in winter the frost might not get off the airplane until noon. An airplane with darker wing colors sheds the frost better. Nightly hangars are hit and miss.

WAC charts don't really have good enough detail for LSA trips.

I use 100LL.com a lot for comparing fuel prices in the area I am going. It's similar to the airnav comparison but a broader distance. I print out an airnav field directory when I go to any tower controlled airport. It's big and easy to read.

Look over the planned route. Be flexible based on weather and terrain. Modify the route to keep near areas with airports. Especially if the weather is low. If you can plan to follow an interstate highway thats great. Natural landmarks like rivers are good too.

An ipod helps the time go by. Good headsets. Fix the seat padding. Clean up the cockpit by removing all unneeded wires and junk. A simple organized approach really helps.

Airspace is pretty easy to avoid. Study the charts and look at the altitudes needed. If you have the signoffs then I would use flight following. Most of the time I don't if I'm low altitude below 2000 AGL I just listen to the AWOS/ATIS to update my altimeter as I near airports and make a position report as I pass by. Monitoring the unicom and tower frequencies of whatever facility is closest. Low stress low and slow flying. Altitude depends on terrain, weather and available off airport landing sites. And my mood that day. Usually there is little traffic at that altitude and they are low and slow like me.

Frequently I fly cross country too low for good radar coverage and we have more than one airplane in a group so we are talking to each other on 122.75

Traveling in a group of airplanes has some other rules. The lead airplane navigates, Others follow and monitor navigation. If everyone navigates it's a mess. Pick the same waypoints and compare distances/altitudes if you lose sight of each other. Keep enough distance so your transponders don't alarm the controllers or if in contact use a flight of two. Everyone pick who to follow based on speeds and keep that in mind. There is a lot more to it but that's a start. The previous posts have a lot of good ideas also. We've successfully traveled from PA to OSH in a gaggle consisting of a 172, Navion and two Stinsons. It wasn't pretty at times but it worked.

Try a couple small trips to destinations first. http://pilotgetaways.com/s is a magazine that has good trip ideas. The $100 hamburger book might also be available.

Using an airplane for fixed date business travel is a recipe for disaster. Drive or use the airlines if you HAVE to be there or HAVE to be home on an exact date. The dates get more vague the farther you travel.

Getting weathered in is 1/2 the fun. Sometimes it's the best stops of the trip. After a while you will pick out stops across the country that are good. Then work them into the flight plan when you travel that way. Could be cheap fuel, good hotel, nice FBO or great tasting pie. Whatever makes it a good stop.
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Post by Jack Tyler »

Ham, I think the best choice for us is a RV-12. About $75K with all the options (a/p, night lights, dual glass panel with Skyview, wheel pants, tools & paint) and a beautifully balanced, ultra-responsive but not at all twitchy a/c to fly. Our two main goals are cross-country capable flying but also affordability, which refers both to 'purchase cost' and operating costs. It's a complete E-LSA kit, highly CNC-punched and with a highly descriptive/illustrated Tab A-into-Slot B set of build plans unlike any other kit I've found. The other main cost savings will be in the form of a LSA Repairman's ticket & the first of the two Rotax service seminars (annual inspections & engine servicing costs should plummet), removable wings that could make sharing a hangar easy to arrange, and we'll again do mogas refueling from out in town that made flying the Grumman so affordable when we STC'd her for it. The Rotax 912 and the RV-12 are both approved for E-10 fuel, thankfully.

http://vansaircraft.com/public/rv-12int.htm for scoop on the a/c

To watch the exhaustive, extensive wing removal & install procedure (not!), watch this short video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnWrXKfh ... r_embedded The wing spars release/lock in place using a common sailplane method.
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Post by rsteele »

I've only seen one RV12, the first customer built one, and it's a really nice plane. I can't imagine any sport pilot not being happy with it. Except me - I don't fit.

As far as packing goes. Check out Travel Smith (.com) They specialize in lightweight, easy to pack and wrinkle free cloths. I get a lot of my everyday stuff there because their prices are reasonable, they have great sales and their tall sizes actually fit me (unlike some wanabe tall places). My brother spent two weeks in Africa with what easily fit into a carry on bag - all Travel Smith stuff.

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Post by Hambone »

More fantastic cross-country info! Having only flown military aircraft with rigid procedures and itineraries, the adventure, flexibility, freedom (and uncertainty!) of LSA cross-country certainly seems appealing.

The RV-12 looks good. As I intend on teaching and/or renting it out, I'll need a factory-built SLSA.

Sun n Fun here I come! 8)
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Post by Jack Tyler »

Ham, at this time Vans is only building kits for amateur construction. For you, this means the a/c is registered as an Experimental - Light Sport and so will not be eligible for commercial use. Too bad, really, as the plane has wonderful control harmony that would allow a new student to feel what flying can be like when not needing to horse an a/c around the sky. Also, from what I saw on a blustery Saturday at Sebring (direct crosswind on the active being consistently reported by the tower at 14G20), a far safer a/c to control at/near landing speeds when compared to the S-LSA's with their extended verstical stabs.

BTW to rsteele's point, the fellow doing a demo ride just before me was 6' 6" and weighed 250# (my guess). He placed an order for a kit right after the demo. But all these a/c do make one feel a bit like trying on shirts in the Boys section at Sears.

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Post by drseti »

Hambone wrote:The RV-12 looks good.
No, the RV-12 looks fantastic! This would be my first choice, if I were in the market for an E-LSA.
As I intend on teaching and/or renting it out, I'll need a factory-built SLSA.
Not many people know this, but there were two S-LSA RV-12s built by the Vans factory. One is now in Florida; I don't know where the other ended up. I doubt that they will ever produce any more, but someday those two will show up on the used market. When they do, Ham, you can grab the other one. :wink:
The opinions posted are those of one CFI, and do not necessarily represent the FAA or its lawyers.
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Post by 3Dreaming »

drseti wrote:
Hambone wrote:The RV-12 looks good.
No, the RV-12 looks fantastic! This would be my first choice, if I were in the market for an E-LSA.
As I intend on teaching and/or renting it out, I'll need a factory-built SLSA.
Not many people know this, but there were two S-LSA RV-12s built by the Vans factory. One is now in Florida; I don't know where the other ended up. I doubt that they will ever produce any more, but someday those two will show up on the used market. When they do, Ham, you can grab the other one. :wink:
I believe that in order to E-LSA airplane built now, there must be an S-LSA version first.
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Post by rsteele »

Jack Tyler wrote:
BTW to rsteele's point, the fellow doing a demo ride just before me was 6' 6" and weighed 250# (my guess). He placed an order for a kit right after the demo. But all these a/c do make one feel a bit like trying on shirts in the Boys section at Sears.

Jack
If only I were that petite! I'm 6' 9". Didn't mean to say most folks won't fit into it. In fact it appears to have more room than any other RV, with the possible exception of the 10, which is 4 place. I've got friends with an RV 7 and I certainly don't fit into that.

I'm building, well I have the kit for at least, a Zenth 601/650. It and the Tecnam Echo Super that I trained in are so far, the only LSA's I've "tried on" that I can fit into. I"ve flown a Champ which is quite roomy

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Post by Cub flyer »

Hambone, When do you come back to the US? Any ideas what you'll have for destinations on trips?

I've thought for a while that if local pilots could go fly the most scenic route around their area. Then download the tracks somehow into a GPS waypoint database that others could access to fly a similar route.

The local pilot would be the tour guide to the local area picking what they think is the best route or most scenic.

You could see the route on google earth or similar before flying it. Website sponsors would be the people with facilities closest to the area. When you download a tour it would come with a list of waypoints. points of interest along the way and a list of services available in the area from sponsors.

The same area could have more than one route. You could view each before downloading and see what fits your trip.

Somebody probably has already thought of a similar thing but I have not found it yet.

I'm alway flying somewhere and wondering if I was 10 miles east or west would there be something neat to see.
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Post by Hambone »

Cub flyer wrote:Hambone, When do you come back to the US? Any ideas what you'll have for destinations on trips?

I've thought for a while that if local pilots could go fly the most scenic route around their area. Then download the tracks somehow into a GPS waypoint database that others could access to fly a similar route.

The local pilot would be the tour guide to the local area picking what they think is the best route or most scenic.

You could see the route on google earth or similar before flying it. Website sponsors would be the people with facilities closest to the area. When you download a tour it would come with a list of waypoints. points of interest along the way and a list of services available in the area from sponsors.

The same area could have more than one route. You could view each before downloading and see what fits your trip.

Somebody probably has already thought of a similar thing but I have not found it yet.

I'm alway flying somewhere and wondering if I was 10 miles east or west would there be something neat to see.
I haven't decided yet, but I'll probably move back to the US in a few years. As far as US cross-country destinations, I'm up for anywhere warm and sunny! Unfortunately, there is no GA here in Abu Dhabi (internal security reasons, so I'm told), or I'd try to get something going here.

The downloadable online flying GPS database is a great idea! It has been used in the mountain biking world for years. Videos and pics are often included, as well as a description of the route and points of interest.
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Post by Cub flyer »

That's exactly what I'd like to have. Just a little idea of where to go for the scenery or points of interest.

Some parts of the country are easier than others. Small airplane touring in the northeast is easy. There are quite a few airports and the terrain is low. Weather is lousy at times. Summer haze can be bad as western wildfire smoke

Other times it can be clear for a week with low wind.

A fall tour for the leaf colors is fun. There are a lot of ideas.
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Post by frfly172 »

It seems the weather fails to co operate when you put a set schedule on your trip.First trip I made to sun n fun was in vfr 172 great weather down and back for 6 days, the next year could not get there vfr was on a tight schedule.Now own a liberty xl 2 certified IFR however its more fun to fly slow and vfr.The lsa is built for touring the money you save on gas will defer cost of motel.Take along a folding bike and stop at rural airports nothing could be better.
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