Sport Pilot Talk

clr4theapch · Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: High LSA cost and insurability

Hey folks,

I have to say I was rieally bummed out 10 years ago when I lost my ability to get an FAA medical.. I had risen to a commercial instrument rated pilot with over 2000 hours when this happened.. Fortunately, I just just let my medical run out and was never revolked.. Which gives me access to becomming a Light Sport Pilot (LSP).

So 4 years ago when the LSP licensing was announced, I was really excited, the thought of once again escapeng the shurly bonds of earth on my own really had me pumped up.
So here we are 4 years into the LSP rating, the LSA's are coming out here and there, but I see alot of discussion about the HIGH cost to purchase your very own airplane..$30K to 100K! I am very disappointed in the high cost to buy a kit, or fully built airplane and even more discouraged to see very few FBO's that even own LSA's to rent...

I recently read in several mags about the availability to even purchase LSA hull insurance due to the perceived lack of experience of the pilots that would fly them.. many FBO's that do have LSA's or wanted to get them, have run into HUGH insurance costs if they were available at all, either way this whole issue just KILLS the whole concept of cheap flying..with rentals running $90 an hour.. how did this help us??

As it stands right now, at least for me, is light Sport Flying is no more assessable to me than flying a normal catagory airplane... My dream of returning to flying let alone owning my own airplane is still in the garbage can... I really thought there would pleanty of aircraft in the $10k to $15k range, especially the way many were making this whole thing out to be 5 years ago...

I dont see any of this accomplishing the original goals of the EAA to get more people in the cockpit... JMHP

I wish there were an answer....

CharlieTango · Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject:

the original goals of the EAA to get more people in the cockpit? that was spin. the eaa did a good job of promoting lsa and advocating a broad category but the original intent was to bring all the "fat" ultralights under some set of rules where they could comply.

affordability is relative, my $120k ctsw is a bargain compared to a new cirrus or a 182. a bargain to purchase and a bargain to operate.

curious that you would expect a $10k-$15k price range, my efis/auto pilot is in that range, my 912 is above that range as are most 4-stroke engines.

you can however purchase in this price range, the aircraft won't be new, will likely have a 2-stroke, will perhaps have only 1 seat etc.

flyboy2007 · Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 10 Location: wisconsin

You can get some nice challengers and etc.. for that price, but as mentioned they will be two stroke, which isn't that bad if you want a cheap aircraft. The whole idea is to have fun anyway isn't it?

oldsportpilot · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 59

It is really impractical to own a new LS aircraft, unless the cost is within your means. The fixed costs just kill you. You need to seek out partners.

ka7eej · Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 55 Location: Taylor, Az

CharlieTango wrote:

affordability is relative, my $120k ctsw is a bargain compared to a new cirrus or a 182. a bargain to purchase and a bargain to operate.

curious that you would expect a $10k-$15k price range, my efis/auto pilot is in that range, my 912 is above that range as are most 4-stroke engines.

you can however purchase in this price range, the aircraft won't be new, will likely have a 2-stroke, will perhaps have only 1 seat etc.

Agreeing with Charlie Tango, My Allegro 2000 new booked at 75k with 912 100 hp, efis, gps, radio and transponder. I got it for a little less with 100 hours on it. How many people get to own an airplane with 100 hours on it? I pay less than 2k per year for insurance as a student pilot and I was able to buy a hanger for 15k and $200.00 per year land lease at my citys airport. For me this is affordable. Different people have different levels of what is affordable. Some people at my airport paid over 60K for a hanger and have planes costing $300-$500. This to me is not affordable...But to them it is..... This is the nature of the game. Some people drive hummers and and some old VW's.... Life goes on!!!

leithalweapon · Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 20 Location: DeKalb Illinois

How old are you guys that can afford an SLSA?
The guy that originaly posted the topic is obviously in the same boat as I am. I keep hearing this CharlieTango guy saying what a great deal his plane is. He compares it to a 182 or a new Cirrus. What a joke. He is one of the few fat older people that this LSA rule has helped out. If you are a young pilot you can forget owning one of these new planes. If you are a pilot that can't get a third class medical than you probably have to many medical bills to afford one.
Bottom line, The LSA rule has actually driven the cost of fly up. Maybe in ten years you might be able to get into a used LSA affordably. Right now they cost more to rent than a 172 at my local airport. Also the price of existing GA aircraft that qualify for LSA have doubled. I know more than one person who have perfectly good Aeronca Champs just sitting because they know they are going to double their money in a few years.
I have yet to speak to a single person in my area that is under 40 and can afford one. When I took my checride for my private the last thing the instructor said to me was "One thing your going to learn about aviation is that everbody wants to get their hand in your pocket.". That was long before the LSA rule. Boy was he right!

CharlieTango · Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject:

leithalweapon wrote: ... I keep hearing this CharlieTango guy saying what a great deal his plane is. He compares it to a 182 or a new Cirrus. What a joke. He is one of the few fat older people that this LSA rule has helped out. ...

interesting that you need to call me old and fat, attached is a photo of me and my girlfriend so you can see how old and fat i am.

why is it a joke to point out that my new, capable aircraft costs less than 25% of other popular general category designs?

you guys are crying because you can't buy a new airplane for $25,000 and you call me a joke.

if you can't afford what you want, stop crying and build something. i've done it twice.

CTflyer · Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject:

leithalweapon -

You might try to grow up a bit. Cutting people down personally doesn't make progress in *anything*.

Some of what you say about the cost of flying may be true. But the way you say it sure makes you look like a child.

Tom

ka7eej · Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 55 Location: Taylor, Az

CharlieTango wrote:

interesting that you need to call me old and fat, attached is a photo of me and my girlfriend so you can see how old and fat i am.

why is it a joke to point out that my new, capable aircraft costs less than 25% of other popular general category designs?

you guys are crying because you can't buy a new airplane for $25,000 and you call me a joke.

if you can't afford what you want, stop crying and build something. i've done it twice.

Good for you CT....Now if he would just wait a few more years, work 60+ hours a week, save up all his pennies, make a few good investments, get the kids out of the house, he too can have a new bright shiney SLSA. Now he can see how old and fat I am as well!!! Girlfriend is now wife, sorry no picture of her with airplane at this time.

[img]http://www.policelink.com/nfs/policelink/attachment_images/0005/9408/Me_N3081x_max160.jpg?1198301793[/img]

ka7eej · Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 55 Location: Taylor, Az

Lets see it this works?[/img]

eurofoxjames · Joined: 08 Apr 2006 Posts: 56 Location: Atlanta, Ga

If you want it, you’ll find a way!!

James

SkySteve · Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:42 pm Post subject:

Hey, Charlie Tango... Is that GREY I see in your hair and on your face :shock: :?:

Now I can come out in the open, too :!: :!: :lol:

tadel001 · Joined: 12 Mar 2007 Posts: 126

Not sure how the thread got to this so quick...If you are looking for LSA to create $25,000 airplanes, than you are going to be disappointed. If you are looking for LSAs to provide airplanes that are cheaper than Part 23 airplanes, than you will be very happy, especially since there are a number of S-LSAs that perform as good as a new 172SP, Katana, and Cherokee. If you are looking at a Cirrus SR20 ($214,000 to $340,000) at 150 kts v. a Tencam Sierra ($125,000 fully equiped and delivered) at 120Kts, you are talking about a huge savings. The difference between 30 kts is not much when most flying is within 400-500 nm of your departure point. So yes, LSAs have made flying more affordable. Is the 1960s 172 still a good deal? Absolutely, but it is slower than many LSAs, it burns more fuel, and has a higher maintenance cost. Overall, it is probably cheaper to own.

Finally, our flight school offers flight training in well equipped brand new airplanes for less than our competition that rents 30 year old Cessnas.

JasonCSP · Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 4 Location: Annapolis, Maryland

Tim - Thanks for NOT posting your picture. :lol:

leithalweapon · Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Posts: 20 Location: DeKalb Illinois

I see you are all grey. For me it is hard to get out and work a 60+ hr. week. I had been struggling with leukemia from 2000-2005. I have two artificial hips, a degenerative joint disease in my shoulders, I am in stage 3 kidney failure, I have had catarach surgery, my blood pressure in 2005 was 180/120 and so on and so on. However, I have managed to make a complete recovery with a strict diet and intense exersise program. I passed a third class medical in 2007 and 2008. The medical bills cost me everything I owned.

Are you buying the LSA because you can't pass a third class medical? The FAA has relaxed the guidlines since 1997. It is much easier to pass than you might think. I think there are something like 2,500 pilots with insulin dependant diabetes, 500 pilots with only one eye, and 250 pilots with artificial limbs.