Sport Pilot Talk

eddieki · Joined: 06 Jul 2010 Posts: 7

I have always wanted to fly but could not afford it even when it was only $7.50 wey for duel because I was only makeing $1.55 pe hour. I envied those taking lessons on the GI bill but when I got out after the Korean war you could no longer take lessons for the Private.
The cost was always in the way. But now with the Sport pilot license and retired with the Kids all grown up and gone I scraped up enough to take lessons for the Sport catagory. I joined a flying club so the cost of the aircraft " a BC12 Taylorcraft" is not to high and the instructor is resonable. When I first got interested there was talk of a Sport Aircraft costing $50,000 and up. now it is well over $100,000 and Fuel costing $5.00 and more it looks like I might have to give it up. But I'm still saveing and hope to finish with the sport License, But thinking will I ever afford to buy one of them $100,000 sport aircraft. "Hell no"
I have a lot of friends that don't fly very often anymore and a few that had aircraft, But sold them because of the cost of flying.
The cost of the medical, Fuel, Insurance, Bianuals ect. is allways going up.
The point is Flying is Just costing to much for the average person any more and is still going up. And now some of the manufactures are complaining if we raise the Weight to include a few if the more modern aircraft like the Cessna 150and 152 They will lose money.
Well BOO HOO TO YOU

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

eddieki wrote: Flying is Just costing to much for the average person

Eddie, the truth is, in my 50 years in aviation, I cannot recall a time when flying was ever within reach of the average person. Those of us who have been privileged to fly are the rare and lucky ones. I do wish flying was more affordable and accessible, but I think that's an unrealistic expectation.

You are one of the elite, and have been fortunate to be able to fly. Even if you (or I) should become unable to afford to continue doing so, we can cherish the experience, and consider ourselves blessed.

JoeM · Joined: 10 Aug 2011 Posts: 10 Location: Merritt Island FL

It is very expensive but I hope to cut the costs some by building my aircraft. There are some very nice kits available that can be built in about a year for between $40 to $70K, if you have the time to work at it. That’s still not cheap but as the builder you can do your own maintenance and annuals and you have a brand new airplane. I don’t have much experience working with sheet metal but have been building R/C planes for 40 years and am looking forward to the ultimate model building experience, 1/1 scale and flying it myself. Check out Vans, Zenith, Sonex, Rans and many other websites.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject:

Joe's comments are one - but only one - practical example of how some folks manage to overcome Eddie's valid observation that 'flying costs too much'. There are many examples, in both aviation and many other lifestyle pursuits, that illustrate it's possible to afford the unaffordable if one clarifies priorities and acts on them. As Paul says, being able to fly is both a privilege and a wonderful experience - and the farther away from the local airport pattern one gets, and the more one uses it to accomplish things of importance, the more it is both of those. It's all about choices...

zaitcev · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 258 Location: Albuquerque, NM

By the way, 70 k cost touches the range of new S-LSAs such as X-Air LS and Aerotrek A240. Of course by building one may build way more airplane out of 70k$ than X-Air, but most likely it would be heavier than 1320 lbs and not eligible for SP.

jnmeade · Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

A lot depends on what you want. There are a few planes for sale on Controller for under $50,000. You can build a Sonex which is a pretty capable plane for about $30,000. But, we are never satisfied with these. We want something with four seats and a glass cockpit for $50,000 and it's not going to happen.
If one simply wants to fly, one can absolutely fly for under $50,000. Something that burns car gas will be cheaper, though never cheaper than your motorcycle. A LSA or similar is for most of us a two-seat, VFR day plane. Buy an E-LSA or make an E-AB and you can do your own maintenance. There are ways.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:47 am Post subject:

"When I first got interested there was talk of a Sport Aircraft costing $50,000 and up..."

Well, first off: That was talk. There's certainly abundant 'wishful thinking' when it comes to aviation. Always has been.

Second, there's 'cost' (of an a/c, LSA or otherwise) and then there's 'cost' (of owning and flying it). Even assuming that mythical new $50K LSA were being sold today, here's another way to tally up it's 'cost':
-- $50K becomes $53K +/- after sales tax is applied
-- $5K seems a reasonable benchmark cost for a SP license, given posts we've seen here from Paul Hamilton and Paul Schuh
-- $3K is my guestimate for insurance, Year #1, for a new LSA of limited track record, owned and flown by a new SP
-- $5K is a ballpark cost for operating that new a/c if flown 100 hrs in Year #1 @5 gal/hr of 100LL plus an annual inspection (and no repairs/squawks surfacing)

So purchasing that $50K LSA in Year #1 ends of costing the new pilot/new LSA owner (very roughly) $66K...and that's with a new LSA that doesn't exist. Year 2's ownership costs could drop a bit (insurance premium lowered, some mechanical skill sets gained altho' the cost of tools will offset this initially) and the owner may not fly 100 hrs. OTOH the costs are higher in Year #1 and beyond if the owner has to service a loan to purchase the new LSA.

No, flying is not inexpensive. As Paul said earlier, it never has been. It's a good thing it's worth it. <s>

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

Nice summary of first-year ownership costs, Jack. Better throw in another 3k or more for a hangar.

deltafox · Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 89

Excellent analysis. Just another question, what about the resale value?

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

deltafox wrote: Excellent analysis. Just another question, what about the resale value?

My strategy for any capital investment is to plan to recover on resale about half of what I invested. Some assets do better, some worse, but that seems to average out for normal use, wear and tear, and markets. (exception: computers and electronics equipment have NO resale value. :( )

Jack Tyler · Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:30 am Post subject:

Yup, totally missed the hangar cost. So let's just call that mythical $50K LSA a $70K first-year expense.

Re: resale value, Paul's answer fits his circumstances but may not be representative, longer term. He initially purchased (and soon after, further modified) his LSA to be all that he needs for VFR and even IFR instruction, and for the likely duration of his ownership. Put differently, he's saying that he expects to later sell the a/c pretty much as he bought it. No new paint, new instruments, etc.

But as an a/c ages over time (and perhaps is or is not passed on from one owner to the next) that formula changes dramatically and in both directions. E.g. the AA5B I purchased received $20K in upgrades from the previous owner over 6 years before I bought it from him. Looking further back in the records, the previous owner spent $30K on it (mostly avionics and interior), and the owner before him spent $20K (avionics & paint). So that plane saw sunk costs of $70K over 20 years (and still was sold to me for less than it originally fetched 3 owners ago). I think Paul has a similar tale to tell about his Beech Sierra. OTOH if my Grumman had received none of those improvements over the past 20 years (beyond the inevitable engine rebuild) it would be worth very little today.

My point is just that, the longer one owns an a/c, while technology continues to march along and cosmetics wear (and NextGen gets closer & closer), the more one needs to consider the total purchase + sunk cost when estimating the actual resale value of the a/c.

And of course, who knows what the state of the market will be at that 'some time in the future' day...

timpry · Joined: 17 Feb 2012 Posts: 6 Location: Little Rock Arkansas

I must be the cheapest SOB around... my first year costs for my allegro 2000 were

$43K for the plane including sales tax
$1600 for insurance
$1200 for hangar rental
$1000 for wheel, break, axle upgrade
$3000 for fuel maintenance and training.

so 49,800 total...

since then its been around $4000 a year..

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

timpry wrote: I must be the cheapest SOB around.

Cheap? No, Tim, the word is abstemious. Congratulations on keeping your flying affordable!

ibgarrett · Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 147 Location: Westminster, CO

Maybe it's just me, but as nice as owning a plane outright on your own seems really nice, a partnership I think makes much more sense. I have to go to work or do something different than fly some of the time. Yes there certainly are pitfalls that come with a partnership, and I have experienced some of them. But here's my cost breakdown for being in a 1/4 partnership in a TL Ultralight Sting Sport.

$27,500 for the initial buy-in
$82.50/mo for hangar and GPS fees (or $990/yr)
$550/yr for insurance
$10/hr on the HOBBs time

There certainly are pros and cons of being in a partnership. The main one being who gets to use the plane when a conflict arises. In the two years I've been in the partnership I think there's been one conflict and it was easily resolved without issue.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Brian

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

ibgarrett wrote: In the two years I've been in the partnership I think there's been one conflict and it was easily resolved without issue.

Brian, that just tells me that you picked good partners. Congratulations!