Sport Pilot Talk

Daidalos · Joined: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 137 Location: KHWV

The Bristell http://bristell.com/

Did anybody see this at the Hartford show?

It's a clone of the Sportcruiser. The same designer worked on the SportStart then the Sportcruiser now started his own company and developed this.

It looks like a Sportcruiser with one huge difference! USEFULL LOAD. I fly Sportcruisers and they are not a two person aircraft with full fuel, far from it. There is one at my FBO with a chute that has a pitiful usefull load. I wonder what they cut out. It also has the canopy covered overhead and that is nicer than the shade on the Sportcruiser IMHO.

The advertised empty weight is 705.5 lbs. My guess this is without any radio. However even if you add another 30 lbs of avionics it is a far cry from most Sportcruisers that run 820 to 840 or more empty.

When Piper broke off with CZAW there were rumors that CZAW was going to come out with an improved model. I guess this may be it only it's a spin off company. We may see more spin offs just like the Sport Cub market.

c162pilot · Joined: 05 Aug 2011 Posts: 29 Location: New York - HPN

I was in Hartford and went to look at this aircraft however due to the torrential downpour all I could see was the outside of the plane, at least it was not covered up like some of the other LSA's on display, so I assume this means it is more waterproof. Definatley a handsome airplane, better looking in my opinion than the SportCruiser.

I spoke with Barry Pruitt the importer a few days later. I asked him about the lower empty weight, his answer was the Bristell has fewer parts count and uses aircraft grade 6061T Aluminum which is lighter and stronger than the materials the SportCruiser is made of. However for the US market they are adding larger / heavier tires and brakes for the flight school environment that will add some weight back. Barry also claimed that the flying qualities have also been improved over the SportCruiser. BRM is a small company with a small workforce so their abality to produce a large volume of planes is limted.

I plan to take a flight down to Lancaster PA, in the next few weeks to look the plane over in more detial and to have a flight in it. Will post my observations on my return.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

"Clone" implies a biologically identical duplicate. I would prefer to think of the Bristell as a a genetically engineered descendant.

I've not yet seen the beast in the flesh, although I'm not all that far from Lancaster (at least, not when I'm home -- I happen to be in South Africa this week...) and I know John Calla and Barry Pruitt well enough to probably score a flight in it when I get back to the area. I'll report my impressions here, though on paper (and on the Internet) it looks great.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:35 am Post subject: Where in Africa, Paul?

Paul, is there any chance you going to be in Johannesburg? Given your experience - generally and with a number of LSA's - I'd love to hear your impressions of the Sling LSA. http://www.airplanefactory.co.za/

"BRM is a small company with a small workforce so their abality to produce a large volume of planes is limted."

And watching the final assembly work, another of these 'factory in a hangar' settings, underscores this. Yet the airframe is said to be built from all CNC-punched sheet, and some of those beautiful curves are obviously produced by high-end programmable machines, as well. And that machinery isn't likely to be owned by a small company that's only produced 40+ a/c. Folded together, this seems like another example of the dilemma a potential buyer faces, even if s/he loves - with good reason - the a/c itself. A small company, dependent presumably on other small companies, all of them in a country with its own political and fiscal challenges, far distant from us and not legally accessible, and with no clarity about the depth of the financial backing BRM enjoys. Trying to determine the likelihood of this very appealing model becoming, within a few years, another orphan just strikes me as very difficult. And similarly, how much of a leap of faith is required as progress payments made by the buyer go via the distributor to the manufacturer without any practical security in the transaction should the build be interrupted.

On the legal side of things, what does "imported into the USA by an affiliate of Liberty" mean? Who's Liberty, what's their relationship to BristellUSA, what's BristellUSA's relationship to the men named above, and who is actually holding and forwarding one's progress payments to the (Czech) manufacturer? And with whom does the buyer have a legal relationship? There's most likely a good set of answers to such Q's (hopefully, anyway) but for me the bottom line is that I would get some legal oversight on any purchase agreement I was being asked to sign.

I no doubt sound like a pessimist, and I don't mean to imply anything negative about the principals involved. But with the amount of money involved I'd like to think such considerations are more about being a realist. I certainly am impressed by the intestinal fortitude of any businessman who decides the USA marketplace needs another LSA, no matter how spectacular it is.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

Jack Tyler wrote: Paul, is there any chance you going to be in Johannesburg?

I was there a couple of days ago, Jack, but didn't get to see the Sling. However, I'm in Cape Town at the moment, attending the International Astronautical Congress, and am hoping to see some of their folks here. Many of the ZA aircraft companies are attending or exhibiting.

solynubes · Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:34 am Post subject:

drseti wrote: "Clone" implies a biologically identical duplicate. I would prefer to think of the Bristell as a a genetically engineered descendant.

"clone"??
completely in agreement

all the planes are descendant...

The plane that I build, is an imaginative version of the mcr 01 bambi, but not a clone.

c162pilot · Joined: 05 Aug 2011 Posts: 29 Location: New York - HPN

Jack, just to add to your comment, Liberty Sport Aircraft / Bristell USA is only the distributor / importer for the aircraft, they intend to sign up existinng LSA dealers to sell the plane. Good in that you can deal with a local entity to buy and service the aircraft but it does lengthen the supply chain.

Daidalos · Joined: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 137 Location: KHWV

OK Clone was not a good choice of words, but certainly a derivative design, a look alike. I used to live in Philly and have been to Liberty Sport and met John Cala.

I may fly down from Long Island to see it myself. It is a real two person plane with full fuel.

Jack Tyler's comments are right on about survivability of a small company in the LSA market. However if the design is good it may make it. The original manufacturer of the Sportcruiser went bankrupt and it was resurrected. Then Piper picked it up. I think they made a bad move in dropping it.

zaitcev · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 258 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Check out the useful load of Remos GX eLite. All they did was cutting some avionics, made dash lighter, installed LoPriesti seats, and replaced a few aluminum parts with carbon composites (such as struts). They claim 682 lbs, while retaining the folding wings.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

zaitcev wrote: Check out the useful load of Remos GX eLite. <snip>
They claim 682 lbs

That's a very impressive figure, Pete. It translates to an empty weight of 638 pounds, which is exactly 100 pounds lighter than a similarly (under)equipped SportStar. I think we can conclude from this that, compared to aluminum, composite structures can save us 100 pounds. That's almost enough of a difference to make me want to learn how to maintain composites! :wink:

saintlfd · Joined: 17 Jul 2009 Posts: 47 Location: ARGYLE, TEXAS

I'm glad to hear about the Bristell. So many of its competitors can't handle two full-size Americans and bags for a long weekend plus enough fuel for ease-of-mind.

The Remos looks good, too, but is quite pricey (I know, aviation+'bargain' is a rare and potentially lethal combo).

I have my eye on the Allegro and hope to check it out soon. It offers a full-fuel payload of 496 pounds (after 27 gals. AND 'chute), up to 100 lbs of baggage, 100kt cruise at 75% in a composite fuselage with aluminum wings & tail. And it is now made in the USA. Fully loaded--$113,000.
www.allegrolsa.com

gzt · Joined: 08 Jul 2011 Posts: 1 Location: Massachusetts

Metal aircraft in LSA category with 1320 limit - there is not much weight to spare. Some compromise have to be made. Reducing the empty weight by 100 lb is scary.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:41 am Post subject:

If I was needing to fly under SP rules and worried that an LSA's rated useful load might be too limiting, I'd look closely at the Paradise P1 (Brazil) and Jabiru 230 (Australia/Tennessee) models. These models have certificated GW/MTOW limits 330# and 360# (respectively) higher in their countries of origin. While one could jeopardize one's license by over-grossing the a/c to that degree, these approved higher limits would bring me some peace of mind if I was routinely using the bathroom scale when packing my bags for the weekend. And the extra space the each provides behind the seats is generous and would also be very tempting.

roger lee · Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 9:18 am Post subject: Useful load

I would look at a used Flight Design CTSW ($70K-$85K). It weighs in at about 730 lbs. Has the wides cabin at 49.5", carries 34 gals of fuel, lots of leg and head room, all dual controls, good instrument package (dual Dynon), you almost can't get it out of CG, 14:1 glide ratio, Rotax 912ULS, the largest support group in the country, lots of baggage room, BRS parachute as standard equipment, most have auto pilot andif need be can be flown up to 1500 lbs without a hitch. They certify the Law Enforcement ones to 1500 lbs and others around the world fly up to that weight too. The cruise is an easy 130-140 mph. It's no wonder they have about 340 of them here in the states alone plus 1500 world wide.
The newer CTLS weighs in at 780 lbs.

saintlfd · Joined: 17 Jul 2009 Posts: 47 Location: ARGYLE, TEXAS

Roger, that checks most of the boxes for me and, importantly, for my wife. At the risk of asking too much, does the CTSW have decent room for baggage?
Thanks.
D