Sport Pilot Talk

N918KT

Don't know if it is the right solution to my expensive flight training dilemma but I was wondering if it is possible to use a private (individually owned, partnership, or corporation, not a flight school owned) LSA for training and rental?

One LSA that happened to catch my mind was a Cessna Skycatcher that belonged to "On Time Aviation Corp" which the company is based in Essex County, NJ so I'm speculating that they MIGHT have the 162 based at KCDW. However, I can't find that company's website, nor even know if that company is a flight school. I found out later that that company is an accounting firm in NJ (I think they put the company's real name in the address on the FAA registry).

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Results.aspx?NNumbertxt=7025V

Also, another problem if I go this route (probably not likely but it possibly is an option) is the lack of CFIs who are familiar with the sport pilot certificate (not a sport pilot instructor but a CFI who is knowledgeable in SP) in the area.

But in general, would it be possible to rent a privately owned LSA (not go into partnership or club) for training? Just curious.

nbjeeptj · Joined: 23 Jun 2011 Posts: 46 Location: Gilbert SC

I asked the question If I could rent out my SLSA CH601 for others to train in, and what I got was that the insurance on my airplane would probably be more expensive than I would want. The reason I asked was in the event my instructor wanted to train someone else in sport pilot program could he rent my airplane to do that.

The way my insurance works is any one that is going to fly it has to be listed on the policy and have a min of 10hr of time the the same make and model. Or 3hr of duel instruction and 2 solo before they could act as pilot in comand.

N918KT · Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 10:29 am Post subject:

I see. I really didn't thought about insurance that much although I know it's important as well. The reason why I thought about this is because of the expensive rates at N07 and I was hoping that it would somehow be cheaper to rent someone's plane, because I thought the miscellaneous cost of someone running a flight school wouldn't count in the rental fee since it is individually owned. The only problem would be finding a CFI who is knowledgeable in sport pilot (not a sport CFI per se).

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

Kevin, I can tell you from experience that the actual cost of operating an aircraft in rental service is pretty close to the cost you pay to rent it! There's very little profit margin (if any) on the airplane side of the equation; FBOs make their money primarily on instructor fees and pilot supplies. The only way to raise the profit margin is to amortize the fixed costs over a greater number of hours, but when a flight school does this, the aircraft availability becomes a problem.

The main reason for the lack of profit margin is the high cost of insurance for a rental aircraft (typically $5000 a year or more), coupled with significantly increased maintenance and inspection costs. There is a requirement that the rental aircraft (a) must undergo a 100 hour condition inspection, instead of just an annual, and (b) that all Service Bulletins (even the "optional" ones) and the recommended engine TBO all become mandatory for a rental aircraft. These costs would accrue to the private owner as well, if he or she decided to rent out an aircraft for instruction.

One way around these high costs is to buy into an aircraft partnership. If you're a part owner, you're not renting the plane, so the insurance situation would be much more favorable, and the inspection requirements would be relaxed.

Quote: I was hoping that it would somehow be cheaper to rent someone's plane, because I thought the miscellaneous cost of someone running a flight school wouldn't count in the rental fee since it is individually owned.

Actually, the operating costs for an individual owner are generally higher, not lower, because the FBO has the advantage of economies of scale. It's cheaper to own a large hangar than to rent an individual one. Fuel, oil, and supplies purchased in bulk cost less. And a large FBO with a good safety record may get a break on insurance rates if they have multiple aircraft. When you have fulltime mechanics on payroll (and enough work to keep them busy), your maintenance costs less. And the fixed costs are typically spread over a greater number of flying hours than the individual owner logs. (And still, it's a break-even situation when you consider amortizing the capital equipment. Go figure.)

Quote: The only problem would be finding a CFI who is knowledgeable in sport pilot

Not just knowledgeable about SP. The CFI needs to have a good bit of experience in make and model. This can be a problem for partnerships, or even for those who own their own plane outright -- you don't want to be trained by someone who is just now learning the plane, at your expense!

Bottom line: owning your own aircraft (or buying into a partnership) has many advantages. For a student pilot, cost is not usually one of them

N918KT · Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:11 am Post subject:

Do partnerships still costs thousands of dollars to get into one? I think I heard on another forum, when I asked something about partnerships that the buying share of the aircraft doesn't have to be equal proportion like a $20,000 Ercouple for example, doesn't have to be $5,000 if I want to get into a 4-way partnership. I could pay less for the share if I wanted to right? Like $1,000 or $2,000 to buy into a partnership for instance?

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

N918KT wrote: I could pay less for the share if I wanted to right? Like $1,000 or $2,000 to buy into a partnership for instance?

Once a partnership is established, memberships are a commodity that follows basic economic principles of supply and demand. Any individual owner is free to sell an individual membership for whatever price he or she wishes. So, if someone owns 1/4 share in a plane with a $20,000 market value, for example, the asking price will probably be $5,000 or so. But what the share actually sells for depends on what someone offers, and how anxious the owner is to sell. There are bargains out there, since demand is now low -- but caveat emptor: if the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. Like any aircraft purchase, a partnership buy-in requires a very thorough pre-purchase inspection, by an independent mechanic not affiliated with the partnership or the seller. And, be prepared to pay the mechanic for his or her trouble, and walk away from the deal, if too many safety infractions are found.

N918KT

I understand. Realistically thinking, I don't think I would get into a partnership that much.

Another more plausible way of me getting SP training, and this was asked by the Royal Karina school owner back in January was for the CFI to fly the LSA from Trenton to my closest airport, Morristown but that would entail more costs if the school wants to charge me when I'm not even flying in the air.

Is it likely that the Trenton school would charge me a rate for the CFI to fly up to my closest airport? If so, why would they do that, even when I'm not in the air and doing flying lessons?

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

N918KT wrote: Is it likely that the Trenton school would charge me a rate for the CFI to fly up to my closest airport? If so, why would they do that, even when I'm not in the air and doing flying lessons?

It's probable. They still have to pay the operating costs of the airplane, and pay for the CFI's time, even if he or she isn't instructing you. And they would, after all, be providing you with a service. It doesn't make a lot of business sense for them to provide that service for free!

Since presumably your time costs less than theirs, and cars cost less per mile to operate than planes, it would make a lot more sense for you to just drive down to Trenton for your lessons.

N918KT · Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:47 pm Post subject:

Yeah you're probably correct on that reason. If I drive it would take me between an hour and and hour and 30 minutes to get there and back. I would be spending at least 2 hours over there. So basically I would be spending half a day to drive there, fly, and come back.

I'm sorry for bringing my situations up over and over again. It is very hard for me to decide what I should do on this.

Daidalos · Joined: 12 Feb 2009 Posts: 137 Location: KHWV

Sounds like this topic has been well covered. I don't recall seeing someone mention that besides insurance costs, once it is rented it needs 100 hour inspections not just an annual.

Kevin this is an expensive hobby and there is no way around it. You may just not be financially ready and able to do this now.

designrs · Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 144

Kevin another option might be to work for either a flight school or FBO for either money or discounts on your training & rental aircraft.
Doesn't even have to be the flight school you train with.
Every airport has several businesses based at the airport.
Knock on doors and do whatever they will hire you for.
You'd probably learn a whole lot just working in the aviation business and talking to people
and make some extra $$ towards your training.

You might even make some great contacts to help you along.

N918KT · Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject:

designrs wrote: Kevin another option might be to work for either a flight school or FBO for either money or discounts on your training & rental aircraft.
Doesn't even have to be the flight school you train with.
Every airport has several businesses based at the airport.
Knock on doors and do whatever they will hire you for.
You'd probably learn a whole lot just working in the aviation business and talking to people
and make some extra $$ towards your training.

You might even make some great contacts to help you along.

Thanks for the advice Richard!!! You know, from time to time, I've been thinking about working at Aero Safety Training in hopes of trading work time for flight lessons over there or like you said, discounts. But they don't have an opening, and I checked it many months to a year ago.

And before that, when I was in high school, I wanted to be a line boy (or an airplane washer) at Morristown Airport, but they don't have openings either, probably because I'm too young at the time and probably there's too much liability to be a line boy. (Even now I'm still unsure of working on the flight line because of liability-don't wanna get sued for an accident I caused.)

I remember when I was in high school, I wanted to work at an airport because at the time, I don't just want to have a job I love, I want to stand out on other students who are getting jobs where high school students usually do (such as supermarkets, pharmacies, restaurants, etc.) You know, be a unique person.

Currently, I work at a pharmacy (just a service clerk) and have a somewhat good customer service, although not great at it. What flight school, FBO, or airport jobs are out there for students in college?