Sport Pilot Talk

flyingeyes · Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 8

I've recently discontinued training with a school that provides LSA training. What happened is, me being new to flying and he being new to training and explaining, it didn't work out. I then flew with the other instructor who, being more accomplished and older, seemed to have become more critical of my maneuver skills whereas I was frequently told I was on schedule for soloing with the first CFI. Needless to say, I didn't think any of us were getting along so I've changed schools. What made that happen is I was informed through the owner in an email that I was "hazardous" and "anti-authority." That was my cue to leave but his email said they were both willing to continue training me. If there's no place to be anti-authority it's in a plane so the CFI's must have felt challenged. Neither instructor indicated to me that I was an issue.

What's up with being a new student and coming across 2 CFI's that don't click?

Jim Stewart · Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 259

I don't think a flight school would use those terms unless they were seriously concerned about you. I suggest you go back, meet with both instructors and resolve the issue there. Soloing is a huge leap of trust for the school. Their collective asses are on the line with the FAA if you get hurt and their livelihood is on the line if you prong an aircraft. I really think you should get to the bottom of whatever misunderstanding there is before going to another school

RyanShort1 · Joined: 17 Aug 2010 Posts: 101 Location: San Antonio, TX

flyingeyes wrote: I've recently discontinued training with a school that provides LSA training. What happened is, me being new to flying and he being new to training and explaining, it didn't work out. I then flew with the other instructor who, being more accomplished and older, seemed to have become more critical of my maneuver skills whereas I was frequently told I was on schedule for soloing with the first CFI. Needless to say, I didn't think any of us were getting along so I've changed schools. What made that happen is I was informed through the owner in an email that I was "hazardous" and "anti-authority." That was my cue to leave but his email said they were both willing to continue training me. If there's no place to be anti-authority it's in a plane so the CFI's must have felt challenged. Neither instructor indicated to me that I was an issue.

What's up with being a new student and coming across 2 CFI's that don't click?
Taking your words at face value, I'd probably say that the older instructor saw some things that were negligent in the younger guy's training, you didn't like it, and were a bit "miffed' when he told you they weren't good enough. The older instructor then mis-read (?) your attitude. I'd guess you thought you were taught them right, and now are a little (rightly) upset because what you thought was OK, is now not OK. I'd sit down with the owner and ask him to help you sort it out. Also, I think I'd fly with the older (tougher) instructor.

Ryan

flyingeyes · Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 8

I don't think I'm hazardous. That's what blows me away. What I asked from the first CFI is to teach me how to fly and I would do the home-based program on my own. Whenever the first CFI would labor over runway markings or explain hypoxia at 15,000 feet I would become antsy. If we were going to fly at 7,000 ft at 10am for training around the airport in the morning when the skies were clear I needed to explain the weather briefing I got and if I missed something (I was learning how to write fast again) I know I saw disappointment in the first CFI. That aggravated me somewhat too.

If one wishes to learn how to fly there must be some CFI's that want strict obeyance from their students. I think that my report card from the first CFI had some bearing on how the 2nd CFI approached me. I understand the FBO also was close to having insurance issues due to accidents so perhaps that had some bearing on the instruction. The first CFI told me he heard of a lawsuit in an accident where a CFI from a students training years before was brought under scrutiny or was found partially at fault in the training. I don't know if that's what's in the back of a CFI's mind or not....probably I'm assuming.

Anyway, I noticed that after I asked to terminate my club membership that the online service for flight scheduling I used with them showed that the reason I could no longer access it is because I was "hazardous." That wasn't the reason I gave them for quitting. I only noticed that because the new FBO I started with uses the same online scheduling service and my browser remembers user/password info.

Needless to say, I'm pretty furious for how this whole thing ended up and I needed a place to at least try to explain the whole situation here to see what others might say. I know there are 2 sides to the story so I'm sure this whole story could be rewritten by the CFI's perspective.

bryancobb · Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: Well

Well... I just got done answering your questions on the other thread.

IF (and I am admittedly jumping to conclusions here) the fuel tank, stall horn, and CG issues are things YOU encountered at YOUR flight school...

...and IF you didn't act very diplomatically when questioning them...

... you have p____ed them off to the point that that want to be rid of you.
Getting a Pilot's License is a "cooperate to graduate" type of endeavor.

My instructor once sent me up solo in a 152 Aerobat that had fuel dripping out of the wing sump at a rate of about a cup-full per hour. When I saw it on my preflight and told the flight school, a mechanic came out with a rivet and a small hammer and tapped the rivet tightly into the leaking hole!

Do you think I complained? NOooooo
Was it safe to fly? Of course.
Was it repaired I.A.W. FAA procedures? NOooooooo
I cooperated to graduated!
If I had made ANY comment to them that would have made them think I was "hazardous" to their doing things like THEY wanted to, they would have made me feel unwelcome.

flyingeyes · Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 8

Cooperate to graduate. Perhaps I missed that before flying. Makes sense. I flew with a fuel leak out of the sump and didn't make an issue out of it. But I get your comment about cooperate to graduate and that's something I believe they didn't tell me but they expected. I'm currently at another school and appreciate the honesty and openness of the instructor. With all I've been through...learning flying and CFI styles....this should make the rest of my time training less apprehensive.

High Altitude · Joined: 20 Jun 2009 Posts: 22

Keep flying with different CFIs. They are all different. I flew with one that cared about one thing, how to fly the aircraft. Spent absolutely ZERO time ground training. It was all up to you. He would answer any question you asked him, but never had any formal ground training time to teach you. He would let you know what the next lesson was going to be about and it was up to you to prepare for it.

For me it worked out great, but I have no problem getting motivated to read books, learn and then come to training with my questions for further clarifications.

The whole time I trained with him I never paid him anything but hobbs time for his services.

JimNtexas · Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 29 Location: Austin, Texas

Quote: If we were going to fly at 7,000 ft at 10am for training around the airport in the morning when the skies were clear I needed to explain the weather briefing I got and if I missed something (I was learning how to write fast again) I know I saw disappointment in the first CFI. That aggravated me somewhat too.

This is an example of a hazardous attitude. Before you can solo your CFI needs to know that you can obtain and understand a weather briefing. You can't get a license to fly only on perfect days.

Your CFI was right to be disappointed in you for not taking the weather briefing seriously , and you are wrong to be aggravated.

I suspect that your mind is too full of what you think you already know to learn anything new. You need to open your mind to learning, and adopt what Zen practitioners call 'a beginner's mind'.

ibgarrett · Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 147 Location: Westminster, CO

I'll second that. A weather briefing is so much more than just "the weather" over your airport. I've called for weather before and it was all doom and gloom when in fact it turned out to be an extremely favorable day. I've also called and gotten a weather report that sounded great and I was dodging weather all day long. You'll also be briefed on TFR's and other NOTAMs that could be super important that you can't get just by looking out the window.

I know some pilots who think the weather briefings are a waste of time - to which I just shake my head and wonder. I'd rather be the guy who calls up for weather and not need it than the guy who doesn't call and should've called.

flyingeyes · Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 8

I'm not going to spend much time trying to argue about weather. Clear weather is clear weather around the airport. You're welcome to criticize me for that thought. One instructor uses NOAA services and then calls in flight for TFR's. He does it differently than the first instructor.

TFR's are another thing and are obviously critical to know as well as NOTAMs.

I spend a lot of my time providing eye care when I'm not reading or learning about aviation. My profession has a lot of varying protocols between doctors. When I choose a protocol it's because I have researched it and read the peer-reviewed journals to find the studies that either document it's efficacy or find it's ineffective. Other doctors may choose protocols because of what they were told or read in a book and never veer even though new information may exist. I've read about dilating in my profession and whether it's effective in finding diseases when used annually. It's not (I'll give you the study if you'd like). But you may go to an eye doctor every year and get dilated every year because that's the protocol and the doctor will have an explanation why they say it's needed....and I'm guessing they didn't read the peer-reviewed article that explains that the cost and inconvenience outweigh it's efficacy or have made up in their mind that the potential medico-legal issues outway their knowledge. It's the fear of the unknown. Nothing wrong with playing it all safe....but it's like wearing glasses all day to protect your eyes from the unknown. Some news doesn't travel very far either and doesn't make it into a trade journal. They may also tell you that annual exams are important. Without going into too much detail.....they have a motive. I'm just trying to extract from what I've learned to what I'm trying to learn now. I do look at the weather. I use duats. I call AWOS. I ask for TFR's and NOTAMs. I ask why a GPS satellite is out for curiosity sake. I inquire. Ask a doctor, any doctor, if pregnancy changes your vision. You will get an almost unanimous agreement that it does. But there will be few who will be able to explain that the vision changes are temporary if they occur and even fewer will tell you what the changes are. I can read between the lines but I understand the lines can be drawn anywhere someone wants. I'm not trying to draw my line anywhere near dangerous. But I want to know where the line is. I'll move along now.

FastEddieB · Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 207 Location: Mineral Bluff, GA

flyingeyes wrote: I don't think I'm hazardous.

I've labored over the right way to say this, but here goes...

As a student, are you really qualified to judge?

It would not be that rare to have two instructors, back to back, not "click". But I'd say maybe try a third with an open mind, meaning both yours and the instructor's. If you really want to fly, there will be an instructor out there somewhere who you will be able to work with.

Quote: If we were going to fly at 7,000 ft at 10am for training around the airport in the morning when the skies were clear I needed to explain the weather briefing I got and if I missed something...

What could you possible have missed? The SIGMET for moderate to severe turbulence from the surface to 10.000'? A PIREP of a strong wind shear at 1,000'? A clear sky does not always mean good flying conditions.

Quote: I think that my report card from the first CFI had some bearing on how the 2nd CFI approached me.

I try to approach each new student with an open mind. I've gotten a lot of "problem" students through and got a reputation as a trouble-shooter. I would generally rather not know from another instructor what the student's problems are, at least not before the first flight. I think the expression is "poisoning the well". Unless, that is, there is some really dangerous trait showing up.

I don't know where you live, but if you're ever anywhere near the N GA mountains let me know and we can sit down and chat about your situation and plans for going forward.

BTW, in the 80's I had to shift from instructor (CFI) to student (police recruit). On an evaluation, a training officer rated me down for always being argumentative and wanting to over-explain everything. Of course, I wanted to argue that I wasn't, and to explain why! Talk about a Catch-22!

flyingeyes · Joined: 09 Aug 2011 Posts: 8

Thanks, Fast Eddie.

I found another FBO and the instructor is accomplished and laid back. I feel more at home. The only thing now is trying to get used to flying what seems like a tank (172) vs the Evektor.

I appreciate your comment about going from instructor to student. I'm not argumentative but more questioning the meaning and purpose. If there's wind shear at 1000 AGL on a clear day I'd like to know how often that happens and what to look for and how often I should be asking for PIREPS if that's a possibility. That's the kind of thing I question.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

flyingeyes wrote: If there's wind shear at 1000 AGL on a clear day I'd like to know how often that happens

Because of the local terrain, around here, though not at 1000 AGL, wind shear at 2000 AGL is a common occurrence. And, believe me, you can't see it!