Sport Pilot Talk

NCPilot · Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:14 pm Post subject: Zodiac 601XL as ELSA?

Can the Zodiac 601XL be certified as an ELSA? I ask because from my understanding, the regulation says that for an aircraft to be certified as an ELSA, it has to be built per factory specification. However, when looking at the Zodiac 601XL, there doesn't seem to be any factory specification, I can do whatever I want with the panel, I have plenty of engine choices, etc. There doesn't seem to be one model of the 601XL that Zenith has as the "factory model".

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

For an airplane to now be certified as a ELSA there must be an SLSA version of the airplane. The ELSA must be built to the specs of the SLSA version, same engine, panel, ect.. The airplane can always be built as EAB if it meets the 51% rule and be flown by a sport pilot if it meets the LSA requirements.

nbjeeptj · Joined: 23 Jun 2011 Posts: 46 Location: Gilbert SC

It can be. I have a zodiac 601xl that is a slsa built by AMD in Georga.

nbjeeptj · Joined: 23 Jun 2011 Posts: 46 Location: Gilbert SC

It can be. I have a zodiac 601xl that is a slsa built by AMD in Georga.

NCPilot · Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:51 pm Post subject:

nbjeeptj wrote: It can be. I have a zodiac 601xl that is a slsa built by AMD in Georga.

I thought the AMD in Georgia built the 650, not the 601XL.

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

The 601 morphed into the 650 a few years ago. The planes are nearly identical. The only changes of note are an improved canopy and a slightly different angle of wing to give better visibility when landing.

As for building an E-LSA, the company that builds the S-LSA would have to certify the E-LSA meats the S-LSA spec. That company is Eastman Aviation and isn't the same company that builds the kits, which is Zenith Aircraft.

The S-LSA used to be built by AMD, which was owned by the same family as Zenith. It was sold to Eastman a couple of years ago.

Because the kit 601 and the factory 601 aren't quite identical, and because of the different ownership, it's probably a practical impossibility to get a E-LSA 601/650. I'd be very happy to find out I'm wrong.

Ron
(building a Zenith 601 kit)

NCPilot · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:06 pm Post subject:

Well the reason I ask about 601 XL ELSA possibilities is that I've been suffering joint pains lately, and I've just been diagnosed with Osteoarthritis. So, I don't really see even a 51% build in my future anymore. So I was hoping I could hire a company to build an ELSA for me, and I can do small modification to it after it's been certified as an ELSA.

saintlfd · Joined: 17 Jul 2009 Posts: 47 Location: ARGYLE, TEXAS

I discussed this very scenario (having an ELSA version built for me) with Mike Z of breezeraircraftusa.com The Breezer is an all-metal, sliding canopy, ROTAX-powered LSA. Check it out.

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

NCPilot wrote: Well the reason I ask about 601 XL ELSA possibilities is that I've been suffering joint pains lately, and I've just been diagnosed with Osteoarthritis. So, I don't really see even a 51% build in my future anymore. So I was hoping I could hire a company to build an ELSA for me, and I can do small modification to it after it's been certified as an ELSA.

If you are interested in 601/650 you have a couple of choices. The first is Barnstorrms.com. That is, buy used. MUCH cheaper that way. Both Kit build and S-LSA show up. Any S-LSA can be converted to E-LSA with a pen.

The second is a Kit and a builder assist program. There are three; one in Georgia, one in California and one in Mexico, Mo, where the factory is located. Also, there is one in Canada. The approach here is to have the kit delivered to the builder assist center and you show up and get all the help you need to build the plane. If you have the time and money is supposed to be a lot of fun.
Quality Sport Planes in California
Flight Crafters in Georgia
The one in Missouri is new and the name escapes me.

Ron

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

The world is your oyster. You just need to decide what you want -- an already built *LSA or an E-LSA kit that you can pay someone to build out with tightening the last bolt.

You can purchase a shiny new S-LSA or lightly used S-LSA then simply do some paperwork (as was mentioned previously) and you now have an E-LSA. Take the 16-hour course and you're good to go on maintenance for your plane.

The RV-12 seems to have become a market leader. I'm sure a google would turn up several potential builder shops. I believe a frequent poster proposed a business earlier doing this but can't recall if it was for the -12.

If you want 601/650, then you'd either need to do the 51% EAB route or find a used one. Seems to be some good prices out there for low-time used.

NCPilot · Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:51 pm Post subject:

What is involved in converting an SLSA into an ELSA?

Jim Stewart · Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 259

Taking your airworthy aircraft to a Designated Airworthiness Representative, filling out some paperwork and exchanging your S-LSA Airworthiness Certificate for an E-LSA Airworthiness Certificate.

Search around this site, it's been done and described in detail.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

NCPilot wrote: What is involved in converting an SLSA into an ELSA?

The process isn't all that involved, but the implications are significant. An E-LSA always has a lower resale value than the equivalent S-LSA. Once it's been converted, it can only be moved back into the S-LSA category with the approval and permission of the original manufacturer (which isn't likely to happen, since they would have to be accepting potential liability). And, it generally costs significantly more to insure an E-LSA than it does the equivalent S-LSA. So, think carefully about what you're trying to accomplish before you make the switch.

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

drseti wrote: NCPilot wrote: What is involved in converting an SLSA into an ELSA?

The process isn't all that involved, but the implications are significant. An E-LSA always has a lower resale value than the equivalent S-LSA. Once it's been converted, it can only be moved back into the S-LSA category with the approval and permission of the original manufacturer (which isn't likely to happen, since they would have to be accepting potential liability). And, it generally costs significantly more to insure an E-LSA than it does the equivalent S-LSA. So, think carefully about what you're trying to accomplish before you make the switch.

On the CT forum the guys who have converted say the insurance stayed the same.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:46 am Post subject:

NC Pilot:

If you haven't already - and following up on the suggestion about an RV-12, a similar low-wing metal a/c to the one you are interested in - you might find watching some of the video clips by this shop to be helpful in forming an impression of what you can do yourself and what a builder does on your behalf:

http://homebuilthelp.com/RV12/RV12EmpTailcone.htm

This link is an intro to the first of four, consecutive instructional video links on building the -12. These videos are very thorough, nicely filmed and easily followed. There is a sample video clip for each of the first -12 kits one assembles.

Paul's note about differing insurance rates for S- vs. E-LSA a/c is worth researching a bit, either talking with several individual brokers and/or talking with an AOPA insurance broker who shops among a mix of carriers (http://www.aopaia.com/). Insurance rates are a function of multiple variables and the specific dollar difference for that one variable may not in itself be significant in the grand scheme of things (aka: the annual premium).

I'm less convinced that resale values are consistently aligned with S- vs. E-LSA certification. First, I think the market's far too young for E-LSA sales generally to know that. Second, an E-LSA a/c finished by a well-known shop may not be viewed the same as a owner/builder completed a/c by a given buyer. Third, selling either type LSA is likely to involve a thorough pre-buy inspection, and my bet is that the actual condition of the a/c at the time of sale and the quality of its mods and upgrades since certification are going to be the persuasive variables rather than how it was originally built. E.g. if an E-LSA a/c was completed & certified 5 years ago - and a pre-buy inspection today turned up no structural or systems issues of note - it's not clear to me how the origin of its build (factory, recognized shop, shop + builder, or individual builder) is going to be a significant influence. Maybe...but maybe not. A far more likely influence could be the specific a/c model being sold, as e.g. the RV-12 model is proving to be far more popular than the 601/650.