Sport Pilot Talk

c162pilot · Joined: 05 Aug 2011 Posts: 29 Location: New York - HPN

Per latest GAMA report.

http://www.gama.aero/files/documents/2011ShipmentReport_0.pdf

The C162 was the highest unit shipment in the 2nd quarter of 2011 at 42 deliveries the next highest was the Cirrus SR22T at 33. Both models of the Skyhawk where 25. Looks like Cessna have a winner! Let's hope this trend continues. BTW, Cessna is the only company that reports its LSA shipments to GAMA, possible that Flight Design would be in a leadership posiiton also if they where to report.

comperini · Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 152 Location: California

I suspect most SLSA manufacturers aren't members of GAMA, so that's why they dont get reported.

Here's another source for lists: http://www.bydanjohnson.com/index.cfm?b=1&m=5

jake · Joined: 25 Oct 2009 Posts: 80 Location: minnesota

Hey 162 pilot,

Do you have or are you getting sky catcher?
We all would love to know how you like it and what you think of it.

Jake

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

comperini wrote: I suspect most SLSA manufacturers aren't members of GAMA,

True, because the LSA industry has its own equivalent organization, LAMA (Light Aircraft Manufacturer's Association). LAMA hosts a barbecue every year at Sport Expo in Sebring. Sample dialog: "Are you going to the LAMA barbecue?" "Dunno, what does it taste like?" "LAMA? tastes like chicken!" :wink:

c162pilot · Joined: 05 Aug 2011 Posts: 29 Location: New York - HPN

Jake. The short answer to your questions is: in 2007 for reasons I am now not sure of, I plopped down $5,000 as a deposit on a C162. My delivery slot is in mid-2013. My local FBO has had a C162 on leaseback almost a year ago now (serial #5) but has only allowed it to be used for training, no solo rental. However this policy has been changed and I am now getting checked out in the C162. Since I have almost 2 more years to wait for mine, I am not sure what is going to happen when it is finally avaiable. Do I like the plane? Yes. Is it the best LSA? not sure. What else I have I flown? Remos GX, Evektor SportStar and the Jabiru powered Thorpedo. Key differences between the C162 and the others are the Continental O200 and the Garmin G300. Visability is excellent as is the cabin width. The C162 flys more like a C172 i.e. the controls forces are heavier than on other LSA's that I have flown, but lands like a LSA. Useful load is limited but the baggage compartment is bigger than anything I have seen. Taxiing with differential breaking is a pain but then it does have toe breaks. I have not flown the C162 in windy or gusty conditions yet, but the wing loading is higher than the old C152. IMHO if you want a high wing then it will be a 3 horse race between Cessna, Flight Design and Remos. Looks like Cessna have been able to hold the price at a reasonable level as the base price includes the G300 MFD, SL40 and GTX transponder, options bring the price up to about $125K. Cessna tells me they are on target to deliver 150 planes this year bringing the total up to about 200, plans for 2012 are to deliver about 350 aircraft. I suspect we will start to see more and more C162's at FBO's around the country.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:35 am Post subject:

Paul:

"True, because the LSA industry has its own equivalent organization, LAMA (Light Aircraft Manufacturer's Association)."

Hmmm.... That's certainly the image LAMA wishes to present, and its been awarded public credibility by AOPA and EAA for what I think are understandable self-serving reasons. But LAMA and GAMA strike me as being like cheese and chalk. They may look similar when reading their website pages but are quite different in reality. GAMA members who manufacture fixed wing aircraft range from Boeing on down, including every major engine & avionics manufacturer. It's dual Washington DC and Brussels presence really does reflect its international reach. And it actually does have lobbying clout...and a budget to match.

LAMA strikes me - at least so far - as a fairly incestuous effort by a small group of LSA-related business owners to lever themselves into a self-appointed coordinating role that has mostly been shunned so far by the very members of the LSA community they claim to represent. I think we're above 120 certified S-LSA fixed wing aircraft in the USA now. When I go down the LAMA member list, I find only 22 of those 120+ fixed wing manufacturers (or their USA importers, distributors, etc.) have chosen to join. LAMA's main initial thrust was to appoint itself as 'the' organization evaluating LSA manufacturing facilities and processes, offering to award a LAMA 'stamp of approval' for compliance with the ASTM standards with which these companies are supposedly complying. LAMA formed an alliance with Embry Riddle to do this, since LAMA doesn't have a staff, facility or tools & expertise to do this themselves. I notice LAMA is now very quiet about this initiative as it was a big flop. (Ironically, IMO it's a need that any essentially unmonitored and relatively immature industry would benefit from). More recently, it's tried to position itself as playing a coordinating role re: melding approval standards with non-USA governments. It's behavior in this regard has, to my eye, simply looked amateurish.

Paul, you are in a key role WRT the LSA industry, so how do you see LAMA from your perspective? My perspective could be quite incomplete. What do they do for you? Are they in either the leadership or the coordinating role they proclaim? And if so, what form does that take? ( Is it even clear to you who LAMA's President is, given that their website continues to identify both Larry Burke and Dan Johnson in this role). And do you receive any more frequent communication from LAMA than what we see publicly on their website - which is infrequent, to say the least. In short, how relevant - in reality - is LAMA for you, as a flight training operator, instructor and plane owner? Or are they the mostly 'virtual' shell of an organization that's waiting to be granted legitimacy by the very industry it claims to represent? Given the lack of oversight of the industry, and the lack of transparency of its standards (which aren't in the public domain but must be purchased at some expense), giving us your perspective on LAMA would serve a useful purpose, I think.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

Jack Tyler wrote: how relevant - in reality - is LAMA for you, as a flight training operator, instructor and plane owner?

In all honesty, Jack, as a flight school owner I've personally had very little direct interaction with, or direct benefit from, LAMA. I see them more as an advocacy organization for the manufacturers, importers, distributors, and dealers. The best resource out there for us educators is probably NAFI, though they've been going through a difficult transition (from longtime affiliation with EAA to a more recent attempt at affiliating with AOPA).

As for LAMA's effectiveness in what I see as their role, I don't have enough information to either agree or disagree with your perspective. You are right that the "equivalency to GAMA" I cited is more a goal than a reality at this point -- but bear in mind LAMA is only half a dozen years old, while GAMA has been around for that many decades. I'm inclined to give them time -- LSA is a very young industry.