Sport Pilot Talk

N918KT

Yesterday, I took a flying lesson in the Skycatcher and when at the end of the lesson, I was shocked to learn that my lesson cost $351.50!!! That is actually the most expensive I paid for a flying lesson!

The bill came out like this:
1.5 hrs 162 flying * $139/hr = $208.50
1.5 hrs of flight instruction * $65/hr = $97.50
0.7 hrs of ground instruction * 65/hr = $45.50

equals $351.50 total

What should I do? Should I cut back on ground instruction or not do it at all? I was thinking of saying to my CFI or the staff that I'm will to spend $270 to $280 for each lesson at the most and maybe they could come up with the combination of time of how they want to divide it up with airplane rental, flight instruction, and ground instruction. Just don't tell me to look for another flight school that is cheaper because this flight school is the only one with SP training in the area. I just want to know how to make the best of it in this school.

Jim Stewart · Joined: 12 Oct 2006 Posts: 259

The only thing I would suggest is 1 hour lessons. I found that my ability to absorb flight instruction rapidly falls off after an hour.

It would probably be cheaper and you'd be a better pilot if you just went for your private pilot license at a flying club. My local flying club charges $100/hr for a Cessna 152 with instructor.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:16 pm Post subject:

Kevin, there could well be a number of things you can do unilaterally that will reduce the training time you need before taking your check ride. But my first suggestion is to meet - privately - with the flight school's Chief Instructor. Most flight schools have some place other than where the coffee pot is perking where a private conversation is possible...but if yours does not, invite him/her outside for a moment. The privacy is for three reasons: First, it will make it a bit easier on you to speak your mind, second it will allow the other person to be candid rather than worrying about having an audience, and third it will help insure there is enough time for a conversation (vs. a phone call or other interruption). Once you're together, I'd encourage you to say to the Chief Instructor exactly what you just posted here, and end your intro with a question: "What can you suggest to make my instruction more affordable...or do I have to give this up or look elsewhere?" Have your itemized bill handy so he can see the basis for your question.

The guy/gal responsible for instruction there has many responsibilities and one of them is to insure customers like you are getting the best value possible. In addition to Jim's suggestion (an honest look at the length of your own best attention span), there are a lot of other issues the boss should be considering, such as: Are you matched up with the best instructor for you, how 'typical' was this last session and how reasonable the charges, and what things are you doing to help maximize the value of your instruction there? One of the big issues in the flight instruction industry for some time has been the abysmal completion rate of student pilots. If the flight boss there deserves to be in that position, s/he is going to have an alarm bell going off inside as you present this issue, and should be responsive to this issue. (I would not have this conversation with the instructor you just worked with, for a mix of obvious reasons).

That discussion aside, spend a bit of time reflecting on what additional things you can be doing to maximize the value of the instruction you are getting. Things like using flight simulation software, seeking out a flying mentor (NOT your instructor), and doing prep reading on the next topic(s) to be tackled in the air are examples. For more on all that kind of thing, take a trip to Rod Machado's website - e.g. read:
http://www.rodmachado.com/_become_private_pilot/nine_first_steps.php
Also, consider your own deportment: Being ready for business from Minute 1 (not that you have to be abrupt or a tool about it...) and skipping the flying stories while 'on the clock' are examples of what I mean, as they'll convey a sense of seriousness to the instructor.

Your 'learning to fly' experience is not going to be the fun it should be nor produce the satisfaction you deserve from it if you can't afford it, or its interrupted for financial reasons. The issue is a very fair one to raise, and if the school doesn't see it that way then that school may not be the one for you, no matter the lack of other nearby alternatives.

Good luck to you and let us know how this progresses...

N918KT · Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:42 pm Post subject:

Jack, thanks for the advice, but just wondering, why wouldn't you advise me to bring this up with my CFI? What would happen if I did?

I do believe that in my opinion, my CFI is a good instructor, though I wouldn't say he was really good.

zdc · Guest

Why are you shocked? You knew what the rates were. If you finish the Sport program in what is touted as the average time [35 hours] ,your total cost is going to be about $8,000. Ifyou don't have access to that kind of money or the ability to earn it, you just wasted $351.

RyanShort1 · Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:44 pm Post subject:

N918KT wrote: Jack, thanks for the advice, but just wondering, why wouldn't you advise me to bring this up with my CFI? What would happen if I did?

I do believe that in my opinion, my CFI is a good instructor, though I wouldn't say he was really good.
Every student is going to think that their CFI is good - and compared to the student they probably are but there are better instructors and worse instructors out there. Usually, word of mouth will tell you who they are if you hang around the other aviation folks long enough.
One of the best ways to save money is to make sure you know which lesson is coming up next, and read the chapter relating to it in the Airplane Flying Handbook, and chair fly it before coming in to the lesson.

Ryan

zdc · Guest

Well, he had .7 ground, which I assume is for pre/post flight briefings, which is not unreasonable even for a well prepared student. The only way to reduce cost is to take lessons from a school that has cheaper rates. Many people just don't think out the expense. The first thing a prospective student should do is sit down with pencil, paper and calculator and get a ball park figure for total cost.

RyanShort1 · Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:13 pm Post subject:

I need to work on my rates... (just kidding) - down here we charge $40-50/hr...! That's a pretty big chunk of change per hour, though nicer for the CFI's I'm sure.

Our LSA is renting for $75/hr and with a $40/hr instructor, that adds up to about $115/hr. Big difference there, but with a new Skycatcher, I can see why the plane costs that much.

Ryan

theskunk · Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:29 pm Post subject:

I'm in agreement with quite a few of those above -- 1.5 hrs of in flight training is going to get you to the 'minimum necessary hours' in a shorter frequency of lessons, but won't necessarily guarantee that you won't need much more than that.

A few things to keep in mind - the ground training is pretty much necessary -- you have to pre-flight the plane, you have to talk about the lesson, you have to do the flight planning, and you have to do the log entry and homework assigning.. no getting around that.

Try for 1 hr flying -- if that is not do-able, then cut back on how often you fly.

One thing that is working for you is that once you solo, you won't be billed for the instructor in-flight. I've now flown with 4 different schools, and i can honestly say that i can tell the difference between a good and less than good instructor. Turns out that the place that i'm planning to get everything done is probably 2nd best -- the best i've had was at a school that doesn't do SPL, as they no longer have access to that plane.

To spell it out, you have 3 options, in my opinion:

1) Cut down to 1hr of flying time per lesson if possible
2) Cut down on the frequency of your flights (but you won't retain as much)
3) Grit and bear it for the time being, knock out your lessons, and make absolutely sure you're prepared for every single lesson and not wasting any time AT ALL while the engine is running!

High Altitude · Guest Joined: 20 Jun 2009 Posts: 22

From what I have seen, you are paying absolutely top dollar rates. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen anything more expensive than what they are charging for sport pilot training.

roger lee · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:17 am Post subject: New Instructor needed

Find a new school and CFI. That's ridicules.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:45 am Post subject:

Kevin:

Well, lots of commentary here, no doubt because two hot buttons for pilots and student pilots alike are the expense of flying and the trials & tribulations of learning to fly.

Let's take a deep breath and think about this for a mo'. Roger finds your rates ridiculous...but you are located in one of the most expensive parts of the USA while Roger is in AZ where land, labor and even the weather are more forgiving when training for a pilot license.

If you are just beginning, it's still not too late to look at other training alternatives. (Did you notice Rod's advice to new student pilots for a '3 lesson commitment' and then evaluate your initial choices of the CFI and school?) But you've stated there is no other SPL training program available to you, and of course a PPL program will cost even more. One option you do have is to reexamine how far you are willing to commute to your lessons. Commuting takes time but little money. In your shoes, I would definitely use one or more knowledgeable sources to confirm my geographic training options. (Have you e.g. worked your way through AOPA's on-line resources at http://www.aopa.org/learntofly/ )? The good news here is that, assuming the program you initially chose is a decent one, the training you are getting is doing its job, even if you later switch to another program.

There is nothing magic about a one hour session, and your in-flight training time is undoubtedly shaped in part by how much flying is required to get you to an acceptable training area. Look at your sectional, evaluate how dense the controlled airspace is where/near you are training, and ponder whether a part of your training cost is 'in-flight commuting' vs. commuting in your car. Again, the latter is far cheaper. The other point is for you to judge what best works for you (re: length of in-flight time). Remember: You are the client here and developing a training plan that provides the right amount of 'digestion' time following the right size of the 'meal' is what you want to be buying.

By contrast, flying less frequently in a given period simply to reduce the per-month flight training cost is, quite likely, a more expensive choice. What you're after is a pace that fits your learning style (even if it requires adjustments in your normal work sked) for the few months your training program will last, and with training sessions that best fit your ability to absorb the training.

Speaking of skeds, consider whether laying out the entire 'plan of attack' for obtaining a SPL on a calendar might be helpful to you. Your part of the country can, in any given year, have a short fall season and summer is past the half-way mark, so doing this will help you consider seasonal complications. Once the fall (and worse, early winter) weather systems start interrupting your training sked (and everyone else's at the school), things will stretch out even more. This may not sound useful to you but, in your shoes, one thing I'd like to do is lay out at least a full tentative plan with my CFI - on a calendar - the sequence and time period of the training a typical student needs and at the pace I would prefer. I would then, on my own, set calendar targets for my written test and one or two 'assessment points' with my CFI to learn if I'm still on track relative to the tentative plan. That would also clarify for me when that checkride is coming up. And finally, it would be a financial planning tool, letting me see when the different kinds of training fees will hit.

I don't recommend having that discussion with your CFI for a mix of reasons. Presumably, s/he has less experience and therefore perspective on your issue than the person running the flight training program, the CFI can take the question personally (since the cost was a direct result of choices made by the CFI), and it would be difficult for the CFI to reflect impartially on who at the school might be the best instructor for you (the CFI has a financial incentive in keeping you).

Two final thoughts: THE most important decision you make as a student is the choice of your CFI. Both the previous resources I mentioned (the AOPA content and Machado's large website of content) talk about this at length. If you're still not sure this match-up is the best one for you, look at many specific shopping tips they mention (seeking multiple referrals, typical # of hours to check rides by both the school and the specific CFI, your own preferred learning style, and so forth). And second, don't overlook the importance of properly preparing for each lesson. Doing so is totally under your own control and can have a direct impact on the value of the instruction - and even the value of the solo flight time which comes later.

majorlyannoyed · Guest Joined: 16 May 2011 Posts: 16 Location: 2W6

Kev - can you train with another school as a private and then switch back to Sport just prior to solo? I'd guess you could get stick and rudder skills in a 152 much cheaper and be a little ahead financially.

zaitcev

N918KT wrote: The bill came out like this:
1.5 hrs 162 flying * $139/hr = $208.50
1.5 hrs of flight instruction * $65/hr = $97.50
0.7 hrs of ground instruction * 65/hr = $45.50

equals $351.50 total
This is about what I paid, Cherokee was $130/hr, instructor $40/hr. When I lifted an eyebrow, the FBO owner said: "you think this is expensive, wait for your cross-countries :-)". They also add a Gross Receipts Tax in New Mexico, something like 8%.

N918KT · Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:57 am Post subject:

Thanks for the advice Jack and everyone! I looked on my school's online scheduling site and noticed that one pilot (possibly a student pilot, idk) scheduled a 1.5 hr block lesson for the 162, further down the timeline. Is it true that you can schedule a lesson with a CFI below a 2 hr block? I thought that is a minimum in general.

If that's a possibility, then maybe I could schedule a 1.5 hr block next time. That way with the session leaning towards 1.5 hrs total instead of approximately 2 hrs total I might spend a little less money.