Sport Pilot Talk

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

There have been several threads that have discussed what we should call ourselves when talking with ATC. Of course, most LSAs are in the system but given the plethora of types, it is understandable that some/many controllers don't know how to put them in the system. When flying outside of my home area I just call myself 'experimental' when getting traffic advisories, clearances, etc. I know in a perfect world I should be able to call myself "Sting" with ICAO code of "TL20" but that generally introduces a long conversation with a typically busy controller.

Last week I'm flying out of Tulsa to Dallas and contacted Tulsa Approach for traffic advisories (a.k.a flight following) calling myself experimental. The controller came back and said he need the specific type. I told him 'Sting' which is TL20 in the system. He thanked me and gave me my squawk code. I was Sting 95L the rest of my trip!

Maybe Light Sport is growing up :D

cogito · Joined: 24 Mar 2011 Posts: 29 Location: Los Angeles

I said "light sport 1111X" until my home airport became familiar with "Sport Cruiser." I'm picking up a Sting this weekend and figure I'll say "light sport 130TL" unless requested to be more specific.

I spent some time at the Los Angeles FSDO this morning and they had little knowledge of Light Sport Aircraft or LSRM(the reason I was there) so I'm just going to do my best to be understood on the radio, be glad I'm able to fly a plane I can afford and take care of myself and call it a day.

ct4me · Joined: 02 Mar 2007 Posts: 43 Location: Phoenix, AZ

This is an ongoing safety issue and I've spent a good deal of time trying to get it resolved. The bottom line is, officially, none of our LSAs are "in the system". It varies wildly across the country... each ATC, airport, and controller are different. The official FAA document that contains designator codes is JO 7110.65T. It was updated as recently as March 2011. In that document you'll find about 30 pages of aircraft and their codes, but you won't find one LSA, or even a code for LSAs in general. This document also gives the controllers some basic information about the aircraft, like performance and separation requirements.
Many LSAs have codes defined by the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization), and these appear in an FAA document that MAY be used by ATC, called the "Contractions" document (JO 7340.2B). However, in this document, LSAs are identified (along with hundreds of other planes) as being a "land-based, single-engine, piston-powered aircraft, that is less than 15,500lbs". No performance or separation data.
I've talked about this with some controllers and WX brief personnel. If they are unfamiliar with your aircraft type, they'll ask once or twice and try to get it down. But they tell me that they can put in any code that begins with a Letter, and it will accept it. Whether or not they've cross-referenced it to the ICAO code doesn't matter - they still have no idea what kind of aircraft you are, fast or slow, big or small, or how you might perform in gusts, wake turbulence, or performance in the pattern.
As you've noticed, many will just turn around and call you "experimental". I've talked to the AOPA, EAA, and been up and down the FAA tree on this issue. They all agree it's a problem. The FAA tell me they "are working on it". One high official told me their database won't accept any more codes and they are waiting on a new system. Let's see... LSAs have been around since before 2005... I guess we're expecting too much from an agency that only has 50,000 employees and a $16 Billion dollar budget.
Tim

PS... I'd be happy if they'd just come up with a code for LSAs in general, since we're all about the same... here's a stretch... how about "LSA"???

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

I went down the EAA route myself and got nowhere. I agree -- call ourselves "Light Sport" with a code of LSA and be done with it. For ATC purposes we're all about the same. Simple solution so it will never happen....

RyanShort1 · Joined: 17 Aug 2010 Posts: 101 Location: San Antonio, TX

Down here a lot of the controllers thing we're saying "Life support" when we say light sport - or a couple of other things. I'm saying "Fox" - whenever I'm flying the Apollo Fox and it seems to be catching on slowly.

Ryan

Jack Tyler · Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:28 am Post subject: An interesting topic...

This does strike me as an old shoe, however, wrapped up in a new bow. ATC has been using the 'Experimental' classification for decades now, and that term is definitive re: neither a/c performance nor limitations. And throughout this period, as is equally true now for SP and other rated pilots flying LSA's, it's the pilot that needs to collect and act on the weather info needed and advise ATC of any relevant a/c limitations while enroute and when departing/arriving.

IME local controllers develop a fairly clear ideaof which registration #s equate to which performance envelopes, and the longer-term local ATC employees tend to pass this knowledge on to the new ATC arrivals. So local flights - even between different airports in a given area - tend to be in an ATC environment that has a reasonably familiar, discrete knowledge of local a/c.

For LSA a/c taken outside their local areas, the lack of ATC familiarity with a given LSA is just seeing the still-born introduction of LSA a/c through yet another lens. There have only been some thousands of SP licenses issued since 2005 and only some hundreds of LSA a/c purchased. Consider the # of airports that receive GA traffic (almost 20,000) puts this issue in perspective.

Would adding a generic LSA classification to a reference manual help? Perhaps to a small extent...or perhaps very little, given the day-to-day reality of different LSA performance envelopes. A buddy spending the weekend with me right now is finishing a Highlander, an 80 kt high wing, tail wheel. Its performance envelope is quite different from the 120 kt low wing tri-gear RV-12 I'm considering building. And relative to the wide diversity of planes a local controller sees, both planes probably seem fairly similar to him: 'low & slow' VFR aircraft.

roger lee · Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 9:07 am Post subject: LSA education

Always calling ourselves Experimental is not doing us any good. It's all about education for the ATC. As an ever expanding group we should be educating them with the proper terminology. They will never learn if we are complacent in our language to them. If they ask what we are then that's a good thing as you have now just added one more person or tower to the knowledge base. Taking the easy way isn't the best way.

I always tell the tower no matter what airspace.

This is Flight Design 525AB.
When they come back and ask I just tell them it's a high wing SLSA. IACO identifier Foxtrot Delta Charlie Tango. They usually say thanks and at least now I know that person knows. We have complained to the top FAA officials all the way to Washington about the lack of LSA FAA identifiers. They said they are working on it. They usually means a few years at least.

deltafox · Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 89

I completely agree Roger. 4PS is a PiperSport, you'll find it listed as Charlie-Romeo-Uniform-Zulu. I figure we can train them, one controller at a time.

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

I spoke with the head of our local Tracon about this issue a while back. From what I gathered from him, for the purposes of VFR flight following they don't need to know the specific type of aircraft, just if you are fast or slow. Flight plans are a different story and you should know your ICAO identifier for filing one of them but for flight following "light sport" lets them know you are slow and that's all they really need.

Helen

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

Helen,

That was kind of my point. 'Light Sport' or some other identifier for ALL LSAs would be very easy solution for flight following (isn't the official name VFR Traffic Advisories now?) with no confusion as to speed. Flight plans go a different route and can take my TL-20 and others.

BTW -- how many of y'all still file VFR flight plans? I have to admit I rarely file them and use flight following and SPOT.

zaitcev · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 258 Location: Albuquerque, NM

The N28GX went to a new rental agreement since August and it mandates filing the flight plan. Before that, I did not bother, although the radar coverage around here is somewhat spotty, e.g. for the flights into SXX and such.

What I really expect owners to do next is to bolt a SPOT to the airplane next.... but still mandate the flight plan :-)