Sport Pilot Talk

eaglet64 · Joined: 18 Jul 2011 Posts: 11 Location: Port St. Lucie, FL

I am ready to start my long time dream of becomming a pilot. When I finnish my flight training in an SLSA and get my clearance to fly as PIC, can I build my time in a much less expensive ELSA and count that time towards the 150 hrs. needed to apply for sport flight instructor???
I am asking this because doing the 150 hrs. in any of the new SLSAs at $100.00 wet per hour approx. is about $15,000.00, but in the other hand I get a used ELSA for less than $10,000.00 (like a Challenger or any other), budget wise it would be much better.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

eaglet64 wrote: When I finish my flight training in an SLSA and get my clearance to fly as PIC, can I build my time in a much less expensive ELSA and count that time towards the 150 hrs. needed to apply for sport flight instructor???

Absolutely! As long as the aircraft is Sport Pilot eligible, and is in the same category and class, it doesn't matter what kind of airworthiness certificate it has. Remember, however, that you're going to need time, experience, and skills in the actual type of aircraft you're going to be instructing in, when you get that CFI ticket.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:48 am Post subject:

From Paul: "Remember, however, that you're going to need time, experience, and skills..."

If you are in training now, you no doubt have already realized that perhaps the most important of the skills that Paul alludes to is that set of skills that make one a good instructor. Your SP license and your log book are not going to accomplish that; they are just prerequisites.

I want to make that point because, if you read some of the threads here and on the other aviation forums, you'll find many stories of inept and even unethical instructors. And even among those that are sufficiently skilled, a subset are dedicated to teaching more than just stick & rudder skills. They actually realize they are providing the introduction to the aviation world when teaching someone to fly. All in all, being an instructor is quite a challenging calling.

A couple of suggestions to help you on your way to reaching your goals, all related to joining AOPA (aopa.org):
-- once you are logged in as a member, begin taking the on-line courses offered by the Aviation Safety Institute (ASI) that Bruce Landsberg runs. These are extremely informative, and these days nicely packaged for on-line use. Many of the topics tie in with your current SP training as well as being a good foundation for instructor knowledge.
-- verify the AOPA website is auto-saving your completed ASI coursework in the form of a transcript; that transcript will lower your insurance premium if you later buy insurance from AOPA, either as a renter or owner (and possibly will do so with other companies)
-- subscribe to their ePilot weekly newsletter (email), and when doing so be sure to choose the version that comes with their training element in it
-- consider initially subscribing NOT to their excellent monthly PILOT magazine (virtual or paper version) but to their training magazine; better yet, subscribe to both of them at a small additional cost as the training magazine is an excellent resource for instructors (to be)

All of the above, plus gobs more educational, regulatory and flying related info can be accessed from AOPA's website...and all for $50/year. It's the best bargain in aviation I know of right now. To get started, you can go here:
https://www.aopa.org/join/index.cfm?SA=AddressForm&WT.svl=JoinNavHeader

(As a SP student, my understanding is that you don't have a 'student certificate' - i.e. a Class III medical certificate - but I'd check that box anyway since you've begun training).

eaglet64 · Joined: 18 Jul 2011 Posts: 11 Location: Port St. Lucie, FL

drseti wrote: eaglet64 wrote: When I finish my flight training in an SLSA and get my clearance to fly as PIC, can I build my time in a much less expensive ELSA and count that time towards the 150 hrs. needed to apply for sport flight instructor???

Absolutely! As long as the aircraft is Sport Pilot eligible, and is in the same category and class, it doesn't matter what kind of airworthiness certificate it has. Remember, however, that you're going to need time, experience, and skills in the actual type of aircraft you're going to be instructing in, when you get that CFI ticket.

Thanks for your response Paul. It is really a pleasure to read your posts.
So just to make sure I understand this correctly, I could even get instruction in a certified ultralight, get my sport pilot license to fly in it, then build time flying in that ultralight, then when I am getting close to those 150 hrs. I can go & put some hours on a real SLSA & then get the endorsement to fly them, and then get the CFI ticket?
OR
I could get licensed for ultralights, then build the time to flight instruct in ultralights, then build time needed to get close to the 150 hrs and then switch to the SLSAs and complete the process for the CFI ticket?

I don't even know if flying cheaper than the SLSAs would be worth the money saved, or the headache. But on the other hand it would give me skills that otherwise would be harder to learn than if I started with SLSAs.
And I say this based on my own experiences, I used to fly gliders 27 years ago, never soloed, but trained a lot in them. And I can tell you the career of every pilot should start flying gliders.
In flying without engine you get to learn stuff that in the future can save your life and the life of others.

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

Claudio, you can do all your training and checkrides in an ELSA, but if you are going to instruct you will need time in the airplane your instructing in. You also need to get used to the term LSA. The cheap airplanes you talked about are now LSA's not ultralights. Tom

eaglet64 · Joined: 18 Jul 2011 Posts: 11 Location: Port St. Lucie, FL

You also need to get used to the term LSA. The cheap airplanes you talked about are now LSA's not ultralights. Tom[/quote]

Hi Tom, when I refered to cheap airplanes, cheaper than SLSAs I meant Ultralights, like the quicksilvers, something that just has tubes, lining and a little Rotax, and in many cases you fly completly exposed to the wind. I assume this will fall into the ELSAs category. I thing the only other thing cheaper than that would be a powered parachute.

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

You mentioned a certified ultralight, and there is no such thing. A Quicksilver or Challenger with 2 seats would be a LSA not a ultralight. Ultralight is an often mis-used term for that style of aircraft, but if it has 2 seats it never was an ultralight. An ultralight is a single seat aircraft with an empty weight of less than 254 pounds.

eaglet64 · Joined: 18 Jul 2011 Posts: 11 Location: Port St. Lucie, FL

A Quicksilver or Challenger with 2 seats would be a LSA not a ultralight. Ultralight is an often mis-used term for that style of aircraft, but if it has 2 seats it never was an ultralight.

Hi Tom, I really appreciate your input. How wrong I was, and that is why this forums are the place to be! Thanks!

eaglet64 · Joined: 18 Jul 2011 Posts: 11 Location: Port St. Lucie, FL

Hey Jack I appreciate your input. I have joined AOPA a few months ago already and find it very useful. I do receive the monthly magazines by mail, and by email as well, including their training magazine. I have not done any of the ASI online courses just yet.
I constantly go to the "file a flight plan" and play with the many airports there in FL (and then I delete everything I did just in case), even not knowing how to read those charts or how to interpret them.
It sure looks fascinating to me. When I get to be flying and get to interpret them correctly, croscountrying will be a wonderful thing to do!

bryancobb · Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: Counting

Claudio,

Logging and Counting your flight time AFTER you get your Sport License is only based on ONE thing...

If the airplane you fly HAS AN N-NUMBER, you can log the time and count it.

If you fly a 2-seat Quicksilver with no N-Number, 1) You can't count it
2) It's illegal.

eaglet64 · Joined: 18 Jul 2011 Posts: 11 Location: Port St. Lucie, FL

Good point Bryan.

I also heard that students who plan to continue on to get a Private Pilot Certificate after obtaining their SP license, they better start their instruction from zero with a CFI instead of getting it from a Sport Pilot Instructor (CFI-SP?), otherwise those training hours (the dual time I assume) will not count when doing the upgrade and you will have to start from zero hours again to get your PPC.

Is this info accurate???

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

Claudio, when the Sport Pilot rule was released, it created a new class of flight instructor. Previously, a CFI was certified under FAR 61 Subpart H. He or she had to be licensed as a commercial pilot (in the category and class in which instruction would be provided), with an instrument rating. The SP rule created FAR Subpart J, dealing with the training of Sport Pilots, as well as Subpart K, which enabled Sport Pilots (without an instrument rating or commercial license) to provide flight instruction. A Subpart K instructor is still a CFI. However, as the rules are currently written, no dual instruction received from a Subpart K CFI counts toward higher ratings. It's only good toward the Sport Pilot ticket.

Several people on this forum served on a joint EAA/AOPA/NAFI committee which last year proposed to the FAA a rule change, allowing some of the instruction received from a Subpart K instructor to count toward the Private Pilot rating. So far, the FAA has not acted on that recommendation. So, until the rules change, your interpretation is correct: anyone contemplating upgrading to Private Pilot or above should do all of his or her flight instruction with an FAR 61 Subpart H CFI.

bryancobb · Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Counting

eaglet64 wrote: ...they better start their instruction from zero with a CFI instead of getting it from a Sport Pilot Instructor (CFI-SP?), otherwise those training hours (the dual time I assume) will not count...

Let me elaborate a little on Dr. Paul's answer. If you decide to get the Private Ticket and you have, say... 25 hours of dual logged with a Sport CFI (Subpart K),
the following hypothetical or something similar is likely to materialize.

If in the first few hours with your new Private CFI (Subpart H), he sees that you are confident and solidly in-command of the aircraft, they will usually try to "work-with-you" :wink: so as to not waste money and duplicate any of the training you got from the Sport CFI, if it is clearly evident that you developed those skills that were presented during those hours.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

bryancobb wrote: they will usually try to "work-with-you" :wink: so as to not waste money and duplicate any of the training you got

Bryan is entirely correct; any ethical CFI will be mostly concerned with your skills and proficiency, rather than trying to milk you for flight hours. That said, the FAA is still going to require you to satisfy the stated minimum of dual instruction hours (it is 30 for the Private) with a Subpart H instructor before you can qualify for your PP practical test. So, if you're really good, and can meet all the PTS requirements within ten hours with the new instructor, you're maybe going to have to log a bunch of (possibly unnecessary) dual to get yourself qualified for the PP ticket.

Jon V · Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 156 Location: Dallas...

I can't help being a little saddened by some of the underlying assumptions in the subpart K debate.

First, there's the weird way the required hours is stated by the FAA. Paul just said 30 but the FAA doesn't. E.g. "(a) For an airplane single-engine rating. Except as provided in paragraph (k) of this section, a person who applies for a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single-engine class rating must log at least 40 hours of flight time that includes at least 20 hours of flight training from an authorized instructor and 10 hours of solo flight training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b)(1) of this part, and the training must include at least—" OK, so we need 20 dual, 10 solo, and 10....either? Other? Anyway....

Let's say you have a very skilled sport pilot. To get a PP they are going to want 5+ hours transition, and need 3 hours night, maybe a little more for hood (because it can be done on top of other hours), 3 hours pre-checkride training, maybe some additional cross country training, .... at least 10 hours, best case. That leaves < 10 hours of training "on the table."

Are most CFIs so lousy that the idea of 10 extra hours... maybe $500 at common rates, is worth all the angst that people pour into this subject? I look at that and say "conventional gear", but I could just as easily say, "unusual attitude recovery", or "aerobatics", or any of a dozen interesting subjects that huddle under the "dual instruction" tent.

Even if it's just an extra 10 hours practicing fancier maneuvers, I think we're overplaying the importance of the subpart K thing. Yeah, students should be aware and should be making an informed choice, but it really isn't the end of the world to spend 15 hours, or 25, with a CFI whose time doesn't carry over. In fact, if the subpart K instructor was asking a lower hourly rate it could easily work out to be cheaper or at least cover most of the cost. If a student spent 20 hours with a K we could very well be talking about $100 total difference between "H all the way" and "K + H".

Anyway, yeah, there are some very very tempting E-LSAs on the market right now. If I wasn't planning a vacation to Canada/Alaska in September I'd probably own one already because they are that tempting. But, despite all appearances, I'm just bright enough not to put another iron in the fire quite yet. Maybe January.