Sport Pilot Talk

theskunk

So -- I'm transferring training. My current CFI is more than willing to instruct me in an LSA, I however do not have access to aforementioned LSA for instruction to take place in.

I've got about 20 hours of Cirrus SR2x time under my belt, and have done a demo flight in a carbon cub SS. I'm being forced due to third class medical reasons to shift into a sport pilot track, and also switch schools at the same time.

To the instructors out there:

How do you typically handle a student such as myself? I don't want to have to start over from 'hour one', but wouldn't mind a 3 hour introductory lesson where we sit down, go over what i've done, what i haven't, and just be really honest with eachother. Is that something I should be looking for?

I'm in the washington DC area quite a bit during the week, and was thinking about heading up there for a 3 day intensive training class to just get it knocked out if thats feesable.

I'm meeting with a school this week to discuss these things, and simply want to be prepared before I go.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:01 am Post subject:

Since you seem to be working with a supportive CFI, you mightr find Paul's (drseti) comments in this thread to be helpful:

http://sportpilottalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=2064

Jon V · Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 156 Location: Dallas...

Quote: I don't want to have to start over from 'hour one', ...

Why not? Not entirely playing devil's advocate here.

Going from a Cirrus to a S-LSA is a non-trivial transition. Getting familiarity with the new plane will mean slow flight, stalls, practice go-arounds, takeoffs and landings, etc.. In other words, the same stuff that is required pre-solo. If you really are up to snuff as a pilot you should be able to do the pre-solo and familiarization flying at the same time and be ready to solo in relatively few hours.

I just did the same thing, with the addition of a 6 year gap in training. I had ~25 hours, .5 of that solo, but all of that time was in larger planes (e.g. the 172).

It took about 10 hours to re-solo - only three hours less than it took me to solo the first time. Of that, I think about a third was CFI coming up to speed/uncertainty (he was new to LSA, newly returned to instructing after a 30 year gap, and wanted me to fly with another CFI before he signed me off - issues you hopefully won't share), a third was my rust, and a third was transitioning to the LSA plane. Assuming you have a current and capable CFI, and are not rusty, you would still need three hours or so to gain familiarity with the new plane.

That's three hours in the air, not on the ground. Three hours is probably sufficient time to go through all of the required pre-solo training and satisfy your new CFI that you really have received that training.

And if it isn't... you are still flying. Whether the transition takes three, five, or ten hours really doesn't matter in the big picture.

If you were looking to change for a discretionary reason (inconvenient drive or something) I'd try to talk you out of it. I've done the CFI switching thing (that's how I spent hours 13-25 six years ago) and it was miserable ... but you aren't doing this on a whim.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

Jon V wrote: Assuming you have a current and capable CFI, and are not rusty, you would still need three hours or so to gain familiarity with the new plane.

I like to believe I'm a current and capable CFI. When I transition a current and competent pilot from heavy-and-fast (such as the Cirrus) to an LSA, I recommend four hours of ground instruction, five of dual, some PowerPoint lessons and reading assignments, and a pre-solo written test. My "Pilot Downsizer" curriculum, which includes all this, is online at http://avsport.org/about/downsize.htm.

When I bought my LSA, I traded in a Beechcraft I had owned for 30 years, and flown 3100 hours. I found a good LSA instructor and treated myself to similar training. Though it would have been perfectly legal, I would not have been safe just jumping into the LSA and flying it home.

Jon V · Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 156 Location: Dallas...

I knew I shoulda said "or more" instead of "or so" :lol:

As a student the idea of "starting over" seems like a real kick in the teeth. I've been there, in a plane I had already flown solo, and I didn't like it one bit. I understand where the poster is coming from, 1st hand. In this case, however, I think the poster is looking at it the wrong way.

It isn't starting over. It's learning something new. The hours in the Cirrus may help them understand the LSA faster, and the radio and other administrative stuff carries over, but switching to a new plane really is new. Whether it's 3 hours of new, or 10, is just a detail.

Don't sweat whether the school/CFI you talk to will somehow "credit" you for the time you've already spent. Instead make sure the school is good, they will really have a plane available, and so on. My opinion, of course, but what else are you going to get on a forum? :)

bryancobb · Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:34 am Post subject: My Experinces

My first 20 hours toward my PrivateRating was "onesey-twosey" hours on the weekends, spread over a couple of years.

Then there was no flying for a couple of years while I was overseas.

In 1986, I got a loan from the Credit Union to finish up. My new CFI reviewed my logbooks and my 2 to 4 year old hours.

He picked up where I had left off with very little duplication. I flew every day that FL weather allowed and took my checkride with only 40.5 hours of logged flight time.

I felt like then, and still think now, that my flying during the checkride was above average, and AT THE TIME, I felt I was pretty knowledgeable. NOW I look back and see how IGNORANT I was in many of the topic areas.

I remember the Examiner pointing at the vacuum pump and asking me what it was. I said ???? "I don't know."

Morals of the story:
* There is no reason for a change in training avenues meaning wasted time and money.
* NO ONE, including a DPE expects a newly licensed pilot to fly and thoroughly understand flying, like one with years of experience.
* Flying VERY FREQUENTLY, especially during the 10 hours leading up to your flight test gives the student 1)Highest Confidence 2)Best Performance, and 3)Cheapest Cost

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

Mr. Skunk, part 61 does require that you perform a series of maneuvers in the make a model of aircraft that you plan to solo, so from that perspective, there will be some duplication in moving to a light sport airplane. That being said, learning to fly an airplane is learning to fly an airplane. The fundamentals that you have learned will transfer over with your training. You will also find that a light sport airplane is a far superior trainer to a Cirrus for teaching fundamental stick and rudder skills and will make you a better pilot for it. They are also a heck of a lot of fun.

My flight school is right outside DC (and outside of the DC flight restrictions). Unlike the Carbon Cub (which no doubt is a very fun plane), our large fleet of well maintained planes feature a useful load large enough for you to take fuel with you on your checkride. Why don't you give us a call and set up an introductory flight lesson to check us out and have that sit down talk? We'd love to fly with you.

(410) 604-1717

Helen

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

I'm glad our friend Helen isn't afraid to toot her own horn! I'd like to add my personal endorsement -- CSP (with whom I have no commercial affiliation whatever) is a first rate flight school, with more combined LSA experience than any other FBO in the country. They established the standards to which I aspire. Skunk, you could do a lot worse than to fly with them.

RyanShort1 · Joined: 17 Aug 2010 Posts: 101 Location: San Antonio, TX

Just to validate what some of the other CFI's are saying here...

You MAY find an instructor who is willing to let you solo a new plane very quickly. They are out there, and I've seen them. However, I would find that a reason to look for a different instructor, if possible.

With any new airframe, you ought to want to know how it handles in various situations. Don't like stalls - what are you doing when landing? Slow flight - again, you're basically in slow flight on final or in a go-around. Steep turns and ground reference maneuvers? Get a good feel for what it takes to keep the aircraft coordinated. Oh, and you really want to do at LEAST one or two drills on the emergency procedures in flight before you go by yourself - just in case. What Paul said about an aircraft transition taking about four hours for a student is probably a good benchmark. I think that it might be done in 3.5, but that'd be a quick-learner and ideal conditions.

On the regulatory side, the issue for the instructor is if he or she is in compliance with 61.87(p) - which refers back to 61.87(d) for most LSAs. If a student is really good, gets the feel of the airplane quickly, and can demonstrate that he already knows how to do an S-turn for instance and can show me a good example of one right off the bat after jumping in the new plane, then I can see that he is already proficient. If not, then we legally ought to practice it until we can establish a reasonable standard of proficiency.

Ryan

theskunk · Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 2:13 am Post subject:

I want to first thank all of you for your posts and thoughts on my situation.

Special thanks to Helen regarding the offer at CSP -- I've looked at some videos and am VERY enticed with what I see... I'll be giving you a call to talk sometime this week.

I think after thinking this over for the last few days and talking with my significant other, I'm still a bit unhappy with the fact that even once I do obtain my spl, there are only 3 acf for rent 'in my area', and in this case, that means within 1:15 of where I live by car. I've found an opportunity for 1/3 ownership of a ctsw about 20 minutes away (much happier) but they will not allow a student, nor will they even allow a checkout on that aircraft.

So its sounding like i'm facing more issues than originally thought.

RyanShort1 · Joined: 17 Aug 2010 Posts: 101 Location: San Antonio, TX

Buying a cheaper (older) taildragger might be a good solution. You could probably pick one up for the same as that 1/3 share of the CT and fly whenever you like since you own it.

Ryan

theskunk · Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject:

Just a quick update on my progress:

I went to washington DC and flew with a school up there. There is currently a political battle going on between two schools trying to access the same pipersport -- I only found this out after I had flown with one school and starting looking at pictures of the other that i had already flown their plane.

Due to lack of professionalism at the first school, i've effectively fired them as an instructor (swearing in the cockpit, no pre-flight of the aircraft, asking 'what the **** are you doing' and 'how do you not know how to do this' is simply unacceptable for a learning environment). Upon landing I felt that i had effectively wanted to never fly again, which is bad. I brought this behavior up with the owner of the flight school and he indicated that the instructor was 'a little rough around the edges'. At any rate, I won't fly with them, and they seem to be the one that ended up with the pipersport.

I've recently taken a lesson down at B bar D flight school which is the headquarters of the fantasy air allegro. Admittedly, I'm not 100% sold on the plane, but i'm 100% sold on the instructor I have right now. That, and 115/hr wet for training, 85/hr wet rental in a brand new allegro 2007 is NOT bad -- 80/hr for rental of an allegro 2000, well, i have no room to complain!

I also managed to get a ride in a brand new carboncub ss, unfortunately it ended up being certified as ELSA with the tundra tires, so i cannot get training in it.

The only thing that b bar d has requested is that I have my own headset, and I'll be looking into that soon.

Helen, I have not ignored your request and do greatly appreciate it. I'm currently waiting until i have a business need to head out toward the Chesapeake area so that I can fly a few days with you guys.