Sport Pilot Talk

theskunk · Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject: Contacting an owner?

Hi guys,

I'm not sure where to really go with this, so i figure i'll give it a shot here... This is really two separate issues.

Issue #1:

I live across the street from a private grass strip. When I say 'across the street', i mean that i can walk through a guys yard, cross a main road, and be at the end of the runway. (200yds, max) I'm attempting to make contact with the owner, who doesn't appear to live there full time, isn't returning calls listed with the FAA for the field, nor returning the calls from my CFI either. I'd like to be able to land there, or at least pick the fiance up there when we go places. I'm wanting permission to do so, and not just show up on his door step, ya know? Anybody run into this before?

Issue #2:

I've managed to find a sport-cruiser at krdu where i fly out of. its flown about every week, for about 2 hours a week. I'm debating calling up the owner and asking if he would mind if i put insurance on myself, paid a bit out of pocket to either co-own or just rent the plane from him, footing the bill for whatever he dictates (within reason). Have any of you been in this type of situation before? I'd be willing to contact him, if he says 'no', just drop it, not going to push somebody for something they aren't interested in, but i'm debating how much it could hurt to ask.

I've asked the FBO how much he flies, since TACAir pulls the plane up, and they say that he really only leaves the hanger about 1x a week for a couple hours, then it goes back in.

I'd love to hear anybodies opinions on this. RE: the sport cruiser, i've even thought about offering to insure myself in it and fly w/ a cfi for x# of hours PAST my SPL, or even get my SPL in a different aircraft... not sure what you'd want to see, or how you'd react to this.

Thanks!

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

For the grass field, try contacting your state aviation administration. Chances are they know the owner.

I personally do like the handling qualities of Sport Cruisers, especially for flight training. If you do though, go ahead and contact the guy. Just remember that his insurance premiums may go through the roof adding a student on to his plane so be prepared to offer to off set that cost for him.

Helen

Jack Tyler · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:14 am Post subject:

I too would call the state aviation authority. In Florida, they know all the (legal) private strips because the state requires they be registered (initially inspected, etc.). But based on your post, you have the owner's phone # and he is not returning your calls...so that may not be helpful to you.

Beyond that, I bet your local EAA chapter can help, as some of those members have probably used his grass field and know him/her personally. I'd give the chapter a call and ask if they could help you with a personal referral.

I think your idea re: the Sport Cruiser is unrealistic. Based on your description of how it is used, he can't legally rent his plane to you as he doesn't carry insurance for commercial use. And the proposal to buy a share in his a/c, even if you had the funds and the desire to do so, would mean he'd be putting a less experienced pilot in his plane while accepted a much larger insurance premium, potentially more maintenance costs, and so forth. If you owned the plane, how could I frame a proposal to you that would make that sound appealing?

OTOH, making a point of 'bumping into him' on the field, perhaps on a weekend morning when he's getting ready to fly, would allow you to bum a ride from him, if only around the Pea Patch. You might be surprised at how many of us would be willing to introduce a relatively new pilot to 'our plane'. <s>

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

Jack Tyler wrote: Based on your description of how it is used, he can't legally rent his plane to you as he doesn't carry insurance for commercial use. <s>

That probably not true. What a lot of people are not aware of is that most insurance companies offer what is called "limited rental" that allows one or two people on the insurance policy as a "renter" without taking the plane into a "commercial" policy. It typically adds 10% to your premium. (I have such a policy on my C172 and pay less than $700/yr.) In the case of a student though, it would likely be a lot more.

SLSA insurance is really high. I had a nice chat with the VP of Avemco last week when I was preparing a talk on LSAs and the accident rate for tricycle SLSAs is twice as high as for tricycle GA planes. Often the insurance companies have a problem gets parts and repair authorization for foreign SLSA manufacturers as well causing them to have to "total" otherwise repairable planes. Both of these factors have really driven up SLSA insurance.

Helen

theskunk · Posted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 9:59 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the input, guys.

I think what I might do is talk to him and just get him to show me his plane, then casually ask if he's looking for co-ownership or perhaps rental, if I were to take care of the insurance + hourly rate necessary to get it where it needs to be (or split insurance if its only a bit more... whatever it needs to be to financially make it not hurt him at all...)

That being the case, I had no idea that a student on an LSA would be expensive, although it does make sense. Perhaps what I could do is go do a long weekend at a place with a sportcruiser/pipersport to finish out my certificate and get my check-ride out of the way, and that way I wouldn't be a student any longer -- would that be all that is necessary to satisfy the sport pilot requirement?

Jack Tyler · Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 4:44 am Post subject:

"I wouldn't be a student any longer -- would that be all that is necessary to satisfy the sport pilot requirement?"

In part, that would be determined by the owner's insurer - do they have an 'in model' instructional time requirement for that a/c. Of course, new pilots also dictate fairly high premiums.

Helen, thanks for the note about the 'limited rental' condition that may be available. I haven't seen that before. To your knowledge, is that usually an option for LSA a/c as well as Part 23 a/c?

And you raised two very interesting issues when referencing your discussion with the Avemco VP. Difficulty in sourcing parts for foreign-built S-LSA a/c is something I often see mentioned in the 'potential issues' category when discussing S-LSA's... but it's not something I've seen reported as a fact before. So that's pretty important information. Did he imply/suggest/comment on the issue being more related to Eastern European mfgrs. than Western European mfgrs, or moreso among offshore mfgrs. without a USA final assembly presence (like e.g. Jabiru)?

The second issue is the doubling of the accident rate among tri-gear S-LSA's. Either from that discussion and/or based on your knowledge, is that higher accident rate driven mostly by less experience or is it, in part at least, driven by the design features of the S-LSA fleet? If you could offer a bit more detail on this, it would be productive for everyone to hear it.

Thanks again,

Tad Olmsted · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 34 Location: Sebring,FL

I have worked on every LSA on the market and I know the sport cruiser well. It is a VERY nice aircraft. Good investment!

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

Tad Olmsted wrote: I have worked on every LSA on the market and I know the sport cruiser well. It is a VERY nice aircraft. Good investment!

I have to agree with Tad. I've flown both the original CZAW Sport Cruiser and its PiperSport incarnation. Both are very nice, solid little planes. Both are more pitch sensitive than roll sensitive (probably due to the combination of counterweighted elevator and dihedral in the wing). As a consequence, you end up with unequal stick pressures (light fore-aft vs. heavy right-left), which takes some getting used to. Most pilots tend to overcontrol in pitch, and undercontrol in roll, at first. Give yourself a couple of hours of dual with a highly qualified instructor (one with hundreds of hours experience in type, not just tens) and you should be able to sort it out.

As for Helen's suggestion, remember that any rental (even limited) will make the aircraft subject to 100 hour inspections. You should be prepared to bear the cost of this, should the owner even consider that option. Depending on the shop, 100 hour inspections can flat-rate for around $650 labor (plus any parts and clearing of squawks).

Regarding insurance: my quote for personal use of my SportStar (very similar to the SportCruiser) was under $1000/yr. When I put it into flight school service as a rental and primary trainer, that premium went up to over $5000. A surprisingly huge difference.

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

drseti wrote:
As for Helen's suggestion, remember that any rental (even limited) will make the aircraft subject to 100 hour inspections. You should be prepared to bear the cost of this, should the owner even consider that option. Depending on the shop, 100 hour inspections can flat-rate for around $650 labor (plus any parts and clearing of squawks).

Depending on the MM a 100 hour inspection might be required anyway, rental or not.
91.327 (b),(1) The aircraft is maintained by a certificated repairman with a light-sport aircraft maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with the applicable provisions of part 43 of this chapter and maintenance and inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA;

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

drseti wrote:

As for Helen's suggestion, remember that any rental (even limited) will make the aircraft subject to 100 hour inspections. You should be prepared to bear the cost of this, should the owner even consider that option. Depending on the shop, 100 hour inspections can flat-rate for around $650 labor (plus any parts and clearing of squawks).

Paul, that is not correct. Rental of any sort is not considered "for hire" by the FAA and as such does not require 100 hour inspections. The only type of operations in an SLSA that require 100 hour inspections are towing and instruction. Rental to customers does not require a 100 hour inspection.

Helen

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

Very interesting, Helen. Does that mean I can rent an aircraft out for a higher price, provide my instructional time for free, and not need to do 100-hour inspections?

(Not actually proposing to do that; just asking.)

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

The rule says instruction, not instruction for hire so I would think the answer is no. You can however let your renters rent your planes after they run over for 100 hour. Checkrides are also considered rental and don't need to be within 100 hour.

BTW, the other interesting thing about 100 hours I just learned is the clause that lets you run over the 100 hour on a dual flight in a GA plane if you are taking it to mx does not apply for SLSAs. They are grounded for instruction right at the 100 hour mark.

Helen

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

drseti wrote: Very interesting, Helen. Does that mean I can rent an aircraft out for a higher price, provide my instructional time for free, and not need to do 100-hour inspections?

(Not actually proposing to do that; just asking.)

I think the answer would be no. See CFR 91.327 (c)

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

Jack Tyler wrote:
Helen, thanks for the note about the 'limited rental' condition that may be available. I haven't seen that before. To your knowledge, is that usually an option for LSA a/c as well as Part 23 a/c?

And you raised two very interesting issues when referencing your discussion with the Avemco VP. Difficulty in sourcing parts for foreign-built S-LSA a/c is something I often see mentioned in the 'potential issues' category when discussing S-LSA's... but it's not something I've seen reported as a fact before. So that's pretty important information. Did he imply/suggest/comment on the issue being more related to Eastern European mfgrs. than Western European mfgrs, or moreso among offshore mfgrs. without a USA final assembly presence (like e.g. Jabiru)?

The second issue is the doubling of the accident rate among tri-gear S-LSA's. Either from that discussion and/or based on your knowledge, is that higher accident rate driven mostly by less experience or is it, in part at least, driven by the design features of the S-LSA fleet? If you could offer a bit more detail on this, it would be productive for everyone to hear it.

Thanks again,

Not sure about how wide spread "limited rental" is. Suggest you talk with my agent, Denise Porter at (760) 727-7444.

As for accidents, a lot of the problem is actually high time pilots without adequate transition training. See:

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/LSAAccidentRateImproving_AndNeedsIt_199629-1.html

and

http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcast/SunNFun2009_AudioPodcast_AvemcoInsurance_LSARates_200233-1.html?kw=RelatedStory

Helen

RyanShort1 · Joined: 17 Aug 2010 Posts: 101 Location: San Antonio, TX

Helen wrote: The rule says instruction, not instruction for hire so I would think the answer is no. You can however let your renters rent your planes after they run over for 100 hour. Checkrides are also considered rental and don't need to be within 100 hour.

BTW, the other interesting thing about 100 hours I just learned is the clause that lets you run over the 100 hour on a dual flight in a GA plane if you are taking it to mx does not apply for SLSAs. They are grounded for instruction right at the 100 hour mark.

Helen
This is my understanding as well.
One other point is that if you are flying a "traditional" aircraft like a Cessna 150 or 172, you can legally go over the 100 hr mark with rentals, BUT if there is a 100 hour AD - it must be complied with at or before 100 hours or the plane is being operated illegally. So in effect, because of ADs, you can't effectively go past the 100 hour mark anyway.

Ryan