Sport Pilot Talk

Jon V · Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 156 Location: Dallas...

Man this place is so quiet you can hear the termites chew. crunch...crunch...crunch....

So anyway... despite all my gushing enthusiasm I haven't started on the flying part of the cross country part of my training. Wind - my CFI argued with me when I said I was developing a whole new terminology for describing wind. He says it already existed but wasn't used in polite society. I'm willing to share some credit but I'm sure I've added to the lexicon. Good sensible terminology which I'm far too polite to share here. Fortunately, wind won't be a factor this weekend since the plane is now down for condition inspection. Gives me plenty of time to obsess about cross country planning.

Probably not a good thing. :)

I've got two questions. Or three. Not more than four anyway. Probably.

CFI has asked me to plan out three round trips. One to an airport 27nm due north. Another to an airport 31nm due east. The third is a loop through two airports with a total distance of about 95nm. I am tempted to plan out a fourth which loops through two distant airports and covers the 150nm and a leg of over 50nm to meet the PP long solo XC requirements and argue for that instead of the 95mi trip. OTOH, once I have my SP ticket I expect to do some XC flights that would meet the PP long XC requirements anyway. Thoughts?

I have no problem with the math or concepts, but I don't have enough experience correlating symbols on sectionals to views from the plane to feel confident in my choices of checkpoints. E.g. when a road disappears and reappears on a sectional does that mean it will be hard to see, or just that they wanted to save ink? Driving on that road it looks pretty visible to me but I'm not sure how it will look from altitude. Any advice there?

How dependent on checkpoints should a person be? When I've done marine navigation I thought nothing of planning a course and holding it by compass heading and ded reckoning for long distances...well out of sight of land anyway...but normal for one activity can be quite unusual for another.

What have you picked up along the way, either as a student or beyond, that you wish everyone knew, or wish someone had told you sooner? I mean about cross country flying. ;)

Any resources or books that are helpful? I've been wishing for something that would show a sectional chart and aerial photos from various points on that sectional, to help connect chart to view.

:)

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

Hi Jon,

In dead reckoning for my PP I used to pick landmarks every 25 miles or so. Your targets are a bit shorter than that but I'd suggest picking mid-way points. Lakes and rivers are my favorites.

Now I'm guessing you're flying out of TKI and either going to SWI and/or GVT? If so, both of them are IFR -- I Follow Roads :). Take I-75 north to SWI and hang a right at midfield. Decent landmark is Van Alstyne which has a bend in the road along with a bisecting east-west highway. For GVT, take 380 east and use the east shore of Lake Lavon, just south of the bridge as your landmark. Airport is just south of Greenville. Make sure to report in at the "bridge" when coming back to TKI and you'll be treated like a local :)

No way to get lost at ~100 kts.

Also use the Lakes on the east side of DFW to orient yourself. Very easy to see them from 50 miles away, depending on altitude.

Jon V · Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 156 Location: Dallas...

Hi Dave,

DTO, with GLE due north "IFR" up 35, TKI "IFR" via 380, etc.... but close enough for overlap. :)

I'm probably just overthinking things but I'm trying to cement some basic rules of thumb in my head (or at least empty some of the cement outta my head) ...

For e.g. if I was going from TKI to AFW... part of me says 380 over/through DTO's D and down 35W... another part says split between T31 and the lighted towers west of TKI, then head for the 35e bridge on Lake Dallas, hold due east until you intersect 35W, keeping Northwest to the south, then swing SW and follow the road in. Stay at 2500 the whole way to avoid the 3000' shelf...

zaitcev · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 258 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Jon V wrote: How dependent on checkpoints should a person be? When I've done marine navigation I thought nothing of planning a course and holding it by compass heading and ded reckoning for long distances...well out of sight of land anyway...but normal for one activity can be quite unusual for another.
I found that I hit checkpoints with surprising precision. The winds aloft numbers that briefer gives me are accurate, the speed estimations are accurate too. It was unexpected. As far as landmarks go, I learned not to plan on hills, unless I know for sure that they form a sharp summit, seen from afar. I mostly rely on gullies with rivers, lakes, roads, and towns.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:51 am Post subject:

Jon, here a few more thoughts to consider:
-- the point of c/c flights is to build skills for those kinds of flights, so I would encourage you to avoid 'IFR' tactics and do what your initial post implied: pick checkpoints that are along the rhumb line (you'll remember that term...) and benefit by the direct routing, lower gas consumption, shorter flight time, etc. This is how you will want to fly generally, making it as practical a choice of travel and as fast as feasible.
-- pick checkpoints that can be validated multiple ways, not just by one prominent landmark like a radio antenna that may be hard to see; think about combining a VOR radial with a road or river crossing, or antenna farm with a private airpark (12000+ of those vs. only 4000+ public airports).
-- don't avoid or route around Class C or D controlled airspace if your c/c runs are permitted to enter controlled airspace; getting comfortable transitioning such space is helpful since that's how you would want to normally fly c/c. This will get you thinking about things like the vertical limit of that space vs. your enroute altitude, how far out you want to call, language to use, what you must hear before you are allowed to enter, etc. All good skills to build.
-- I agree with your tendency to want longer flights; your instructor may be urging the shorter runs because they make things easier and that's not a bad thing. But to the extent you are comfortable with land DR'ing, longer legs will make the practical experience more valuable (and realistic)
-- as when sailing, as you confirm your location on arriving at/near Checkpoint #1 (e.g. you find your course has carried you a bit to the W of the checkpoint), adjust your course correction when continuing on to Checkpoint #2. Perhaps your part of the country is different...but even in these relatively benign Florida weather conditions, winds aloft f'casts aren't always accurate. However, having said that...
-- be sure to write down both the winds aloft f'cast for the altitudes you'll be flying and ask for the pireps Flight Service has in the can. Having those to refer to enroute can be useful.

IMO c/c flying is when flying becomes aviation. Making circuits around the pea patch to clear the mind or celebrating a day off can be enjoyable but it can also be like eating cotton candy. Crossing a piece of our country while seeing it thru a totally unique lens - and then arriving at a new destination - is the purpose of building all those skills. And just like the 'cruising' side of sailing, arriving at a new place by air - just like arriving by sea - is a type of arrival unlike any other.

Good luck on the choices and - hopefully, soon - on the flights.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

Jon V wrote: I've been wishing for something that would show a sectional chart and aerial photos from various points on that sectional, to help connect chart to view.

You have a resource available to concoct just such a comparison, Jon. It's called Google Earth. You can tell it the altitude from which you wish to view any part of the world, and then compare that view to your sectional. My students practice flying every XC on Google Earth before they head out to the airport. (Some even print out those altitude views in color, and carry them in the plane -- I think that's probably overkill).

One thing to remember is that everything on the chart exists somewhere on the ground. The converse is not always true. So work from chart to ground, not vice versa.

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

I would also like to add in my part of the country rivers are not always good at least they have not been this year. A flooded river bottom can look like a big lake, and it's hard to find the river channel. Tom

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

3Dreaming wrote: A flooded river bottom can look like a big lake

And conversely, during drought season, a dry riverbed can become invisible.

Jon V · Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 156 Location: Dallas...

Quote: Google Earth

Interesting. I had dismissed the utility of GE because last time I fired it up the image quality was atrocious. I shoulda played with the settings a bit more because twiddling around makes things much clearer. The houses bent over the tops of hills, and bridges that warp down to follow the ground contour, are a bit surreal but hey who am I to say there aren't people with canted swimming pools filled with blue jello?

Very cool.

Jack, good post as usual.

I think you know exactly where I'm coming from. Mercator projection charts. Snap a rhumb line, determine the heading, use checkpoints (visual, electronic, celestial, even wind/wave conditions in familiar waters, preferably several at once) to validate that you're on the right track. If I was sailing from A to B, ports 100 miles apart, I would not cling to the coast to maintain a visual reference throughout. I certainly wouldn't add 50 miles to my trip to be able to maintain constant visual reference to a coast. I'd take the shortest safe distance. As far as I can wrap my head around it I suppose these Lambert conic projection sectionals would show curved rhumb lines, but that's being pedantic over <100mi distances. Pencil in your desired course and if you happen to be a few hundred feet off because you held magnetic then I'm very impressed at your flying precision.

My boggle is really jut inexperience. I've spent a total of maybe 40 hours in airplanes at under 5000'. I'm sure I had accumulated several hundred hours in various boats (captained by others) before I planned my first ocean sail so I had a much better feel for everything.

I'm not going to draw any lines in the sand or declare what is or isn't aviation but I see where you are coming from. It's part of the reason I don't have a sailboat here in Tejas Norte... yeah, there are lakes here, and yeah, people sail on 'em in bigger boats than mine, but if you can't go anywhere...why? I have a kayak and even with that I can end up feeling a bit cooped up.

Everyone: Thank you!

Oh, and on rivers... It's worse for me. I grew up in SoCal where the rivers are very easy to recognize. Huge concrete channels, much favored for car chase scenes and graffiti. I only saw them carrying more than a trickle of water once in the 30+ years I lived there so no worries about the appearance changing. Of course I move to Texas and the rivers are all dirt, and have trees growing around them, and they have water seemingly year round. It's not (as) unnatural!

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

Jon,

Quote: I think you know exactly where I'm coming from. Mercator projection charts. Snap a rhumb line, determine the heading, use checkpoints (visual, electronic, celestial, even wind/wave conditions in familiar waters, preferably several at once) to validate that you're on the right track.

This is exactly what I do today except I typically draw my line with Foreflight HD on the iPad or DUAT Voyager on my laptop. I even have resorted to using paper charts and transparent tape :) Whatever the method, I just bend the route to avoid restricted areas and mark up with recognizable waypoints. I then load this into my Garmin 496 and iPad. Fly the route and verify I hit my waypoints more or less as planned. After student days, waypoints every 50 miles or so is more than adequate.

Of course with all the electronics, recalculations are automagic. But I still would know exactly where I am if all the devices fail since I'm tracking as I go.

Jon V · Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 156 Location: Dallas...

Foreflight is really cool on the ground, I can only assume it's even better in the air. I haven't bothered trying it yet since at this point I'm going for the "one hand tied behind my back" approach. ;)

Gotta laugh at GPSes nowadays. I remember mooning over a marine GPS long long ago ... it cost thousands, took forever to get a fix, drank power like cheap beer, but man did I want one. Fast forward...I have two GPS receivers in my pockets (personal + on-call cell phones), one in my tablet on my desk, a car nav unit in my jeep, plus another general nav GPS in the emergency stash in the back of the jeep....and that's just my own that I could access in under a minute. Three of those either have, or could have, full VFR charts, airport data, and so on with a touch-screen interface. The others could at least provide coords, ground speed, alt, and so on... and people worry about batteries going dead in the air! Not me though - I worry about back strain carrying it all. :)