Sport Pilot Talk

Tad Olmsted · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 34 Location: Sebring,FL

I am going to buy a kit from Vans RV and I am trying to narrow down my choices. I'm not real impressed with the looks of the RV-12 and I want to make sure I choose the right airframe to sell quickly. I am thinking of going with the RV-9. I would like some input to help me along.

I know this is going to be a lot of work, so I am going to hire 3 more mechanics to help with the assembly. 4 men at 40 hours a week should get this done in a reasonable time. This project is going to be like building a spec house. Put the money up and hope it sells quickly. If not, I'll keep it and beat the crap out of it trying to get my stinking landings down pat. ( gonna hurt my wallet)

RV9 with anolog gauges, VFR, but with a nice Garmin 696 and auto pilot. Sound good???

I would like to also do some more building of kits for customers. I dont want to put these men on the payroll and then have to lay them off once the RV-9 is done. So I am offering assembly to all, any airframe.

Any referrals will be greatly apriciated

Jon V · Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 156 Location: Dallas...

Monitor Barnstormers or the like for awhile before you follow your plan. You can set up searches and they'll send you a daily email with your search results. That should get you an accurate image of the market for any plane you might want to build.

I started building an 8A a few years ago. I had to suspend building due to a move (I don't have space for it right now/it's waiting for me as soon as I do), but I had the total estimated cost laid out in spreadsheet form. Cost before labor I should say.

A friend of mine bought an 8A a few months ago, beautifully built with glass panel, CS prop, fancy paint, under 400 hours, etc.... for about what my spreadsheet says my 8A will cost me. Maybe a bit less. My friend thinks I'm crazy for not just selling my 8A parts and buying a used one.

As far as I know there are more 9s flying than 8s. I suspect the only RVs that aren't readily available are the two digit planes (10, 12) but do your own research there.

Which is all a long-winded way of saying look before you leap if you want to recover your costs.

As for the rest... personally, I would skip the 696 and install a mount for an android tablet or iPad. For under $1000 you can do a lot (full XM weather, moving map, on and on), and it becomes a bargaining tool when you go to sell (sell with or without the tablet). It also gives you a bit of the value add (instead of $3000 going to Garmin you have $500 going to the tablet maker, maybe $200 going to the XM receiver maker, another $200 in glue, and $100 in software) but I am in a very small minority there and the more "known" 696 may be easier to sell.

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

This appears to me to be completely counter to the FARs. The only airworthyness certificate an RV--9 can get is Experimental Amateur Build and it seems to me that this is going to be a professional operation. Sure I know people hire builders to build planes for them all the time, but the FAA takes a very dim view of it. An RV-12 is different. It can be registered as an E-LSA and the amateur status of the builder doesn't matter. A 12 can probably be build in 1/2 or less the time of an 9.

I just can't imagine doing this on spec would be anything but a money pit, especially if you hire help.

Tad Olmsted · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 34 Location: Sebring,FL

rsteele, you are exactly right.

Thanks for the input.

I would be the manufacture and then sell it like any other aircraft once it is airworthy. Sure there are taxes involved, but thats the way it is here in the land of the free.

Also, ther are things such as "quick builds" and "builder assist". All legal and not going agaist the grain of the FAR's.

LSAflyer · Joined: 12 May 2011 Posts: 9

How much do you expect to get out of these?

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

Why the RV-9 instead of the RV-7, which seems to be much more popular.
The air frame is identical, but the -9 has different wings and takes a smaller engine - more of a cruiser verses a sport plane. I know people with -4, -6, and a couple of -7s and -8s but have only seen a -9 on a ramp once (not that I get around all that much).

Ron

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

I haven't done the market research, but my gut tells me folks are likely to snap up RV-12s. There's likely to be a much larger market for E-LSAs than for E-ABs.

Tad Olmsted · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 34 Location: Sebring,FL

This is awesome feedback guys!!!

Maybe I was wrong in thinking the 9 would be the better choice. Of course I would be right at home with the 12 and I happen to have a 912 in the shop looking for a home. I was thinking the 9 would sell quicker due to the smaller 320 engine (rather than a 360) and a faster cruise.

I am glad we have these forums to talk things out. Keep the input coming guys, thanks.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:40 am Post subject:

Tad, in your research phase I would:
-- spend some time on the VAF forum (vansairforce.com) and solicit feedback there on your build assumptions vs. the realities others have experienced re: cost & time
-- use Vans data (vansaircraft.com) on kits sold vs. span of time each kit has been available. (E.g. the first kit for the RV-12 was available almost exactly 3 years ago. I think they are now selling kit #540 or 550. Compare that to the other RV models...and for that matter, look at how that compares to any S-LSA model over the last 3 years).
-- benchmark several of the custom builder shops that are already doing what you are considering. They are easily identified using Google, and evaluating their business plan as best you can estimate it would be instructive.
-- do some research on the recent FAA changes on the E-AB 51% rule and you'll see it's much riskier to 'build a kit for someone else'. (Vans quarterly newsletters, available via .pdf files and free, has some interesting discussions on this)
-- but before doing any of the above, price out the kits plus supplemental avionics and other equipment needed, add in $10K for a paint job, add the use tax you will pay to your state once the registration number is issued by the FAA, and then look at the marketplace. I think you'll quickly find this is a tough formula to make work.

Quick build kits don't fit with your proposed biz plan, IMO. You need buyers before you need to build planes faster... <s> And who's going to be building these planes for you, that they would be qualified enough to avoid rework, poor work, and replacement kit parts, available enough to work when you had an order, and while being paid little enough to leave some profit margin for you? The devil's always in the details...

Tad Olmsted · Joined: 28 Feb 2011 Posts: 34 Location: Sebring,FL

I had no idea they have sold that many RV 12's

All the legal stuff, taxes and man power have been calculated. Maybe "estimated" should be the word. I have read all the FAR's and literature from vans on the 51% rule. I definately want to be on the up and up when comes to the federal government.

I would definately prefer having a buying up front, but I'm a risk taker when it comes to investments in aviation. The aircraft will be pristine when completed and I never have a problem signing my name on the bottom line. That's what I'm here for 8)

I chose Vans for my airframe due to their reputation. Once completed, it should move in a timely fashion. No orders have been placed yet, I am thinking of buying at Oshkosh when the deals are hot. Unless a buyer comes to me first.

Thanks for the help Jack, I'll be at KPIE next week from Sun- Tue. Maybe I'll run into you someday.

Aerco · Joined: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 68 Location: Corona CA

Legal? Possibly. Yes, you can sell an amateur built airplane legally. "Amateur built" however, means built for "recreational or educational purposes". By stating that you are building with the intention to sell you are violating those conditions, plain and simple. Your post would be clear evidence of it.

Yes, you will most likely get away with it, but the FAA takes a dim view of it and should they choose to give you hassle about, they could. And if enough people keep doing this, it will eventually cause problems for all homebuilders.

I assume you have done the math and you think there is a profit in this sort of thing - I know I have. This is a lousy time for airplane sellers and a great time for buyers; there are amazing bargains out there and I cannot see how you'll turn a worthwhile profit doing this.