Sport Pilot Talk

zaitcev · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 258 Location: Albuquerque, NM

I am back from the LSA Expo in Denver FTG, and the expedition soured me up on the available LSAs somewhat. I see a lot of execercise and dieting in my future, if I want to fly.

After discovering that I am blind to the sides in Remos, I figured that perhaps a low-wing airplane would work better. Not so! Among the 4 on the show, Jim Lee, owner of the amazing LSA/motorglider motorglider, said not even attempt to fit. When I tried the Gobosh, the owner, Chris, did not even try to close the canopy. He knew that I sticked out. Eric of Fox Aviation, the salesman of SportCruiser, did try to close it, but only received a fatty hairprint of my unkempt hair. There was still 2 inches to go. The only one which did close was Evektor. And in all cases the edge of the dash comes right under my knees, which hurts like hell. In the picture below, I am sitting as low as possible (BTW, Evektor has the edge padded):

Surprisingly enough, Jabiru J230 was somewhat better than Remos. I can look under the edge of the door without craning, just bowing a little.

Finally, I tried Legend Cub. Getting in and out of it is not easy. In the front it's the same story as the most low-wings: excuriating hurt against the dashboard. In the back it's quite nice. With may arms, I can reach and touch the the panel, although barely. So, I guess a Cub is an option, although I'm not very enthusiastic.

Looks like I should stick a fork into LSAs completely and just buy a Bonanza or Mooney.

-- Pete

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

zaitcev wrote: The only one which did close was Evektor. And in all cases the edge of the dash comes right under my knees, which hurts like hell.

Pete, I had one very large student (now a Sport Pilot) who flies my Evektor by taking out the removable padding section of the seat upholstery (it's held on with velcro, so comes off easily). That allows his knees to clear the instrument panel, and with the 3-position rudder pedals adjusted full forward, he has no problems at all. (He's six-foot-something and 250 pounds, so unless you vastly exceed those dimensions, it should be possible.)

With the GTOW increase service bulletin complied with, my SportStar Plus has been converted to a SportStar Max. 745 empty weight, 1320 max gross equates to 575 pounds useful load. Full fuel (which, BTW, is totally unnecessary) leaves 387 pounds of payload. That accommodates a 250 pound student and a 137 pound instructor. Since I weigh 170 pounds fully clothed, that's a non-starter. I generally fill the tanks to 24 gallons, and can still carry that 250 pounder, plus ten pounds of charts and emergency gear. 24 gallons gives me four hours of flying, plus reserves. A lesson seldom goes over 2 hours, so even with a heavy student, I can still carry about twice the fuel I actually need.

roger lee · Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 2:27 pm Post subject: A better plane for big people

Some aircraft have bigger cabins. See the cute video.

http://www.bell-m-air.de/files/mc-size-matters.swf

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

Also check out the high wing Tecnam's Echo Super is best.
Also the AMD/Zenith 650B (B denoted strengthened airframe) It's probably got the most room of any low wing. Unfortunately the S-LSA version is O200 powered so there could be weight issues. You'd want a minimal version, not the (i) instrument version.

Ron

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

roger lee wrote: Some aircraft have bigger cabins.

That CT-MC is a beautiful concept. Full specs are at http://flightdesign.com/files/Media/Brochure%20MC2011LQ_EUR.pdf. However, if you do a reality check, some things just don't add up. 1320 pounds max gross, and 794 typical empty weight, leaves 526 pounds useful load. Then, they say the plane will accommodate two occupants of 265 pounds each, which equals 530 pounds. So, with maximum passenger weight, you're already four pounds over gross, with zero fuel!

jake · Joined: 25 Oct 2009 Posts: 80 Location: minnesota

drseti wrote: roger lee wrote: Some aircraft have bigger cabins.

That CT-MC is a beautiful concept. Full specs are at http://flightdesign.com/files/Media/Brochure%20MC2011LQ_EUR.pdf. However, if you do a reality check, some things just don't add up. 1320 pounds max gross, and 794 typical empty weight, leaves 526 pounds useful load. Then, they say the plane will accommodate two occupants of 265 pounds each, which equals 530 pounds. So, with maximum passenger weight, you're already four pounds over gross, with zero fuel!

Its looking more and more to me that the reality is some LSAs are going to be accasionally flown overweight. Maybe not a good idea but the trend of the newest LSAs are increased empty weight.
Likely a result of trying to build in at least a minimum amount of durability.

Jake

jake · Joined: 25 Oct 2009 Posts: 80 Location: minnesota

rsteele wrote: Also check out the high wing Tecnam's Echo Super is best.
Also the AMD/Zenith 650B (B denoted strengthened airframe) It's probably got the most room of any low wing. Unfortunately the S-LSA version is O200 powered so there could be weight issues. You'd want a minimal version, not the (i) instrument version.

Ron

All the Tecnams have very small cabins except the P2008.
You definitely will not fit in the Echo.
I Have a P2008 and the cabin is fairly wide at 47 inches. Has ALOT of legroom. More than anyone would actually use.
Unfortunately it does not have alot of headroom. I had a 6' 4" passenger and he had to put his headset band behind his head so it did not rub on the headliner.

Jake

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

All planes are small. Im 6'9" and 300lbs and did all my training in an Echo Super. Very tight for me, but doable. Mostly it's matter of not alot of not
A lot extraineous stuff in the cockpit.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

jake wrote: the reality is some LSAs are going to be occasionally flown overweight.

We all know that to be true, Jake, and there's not much to be done about it, on this forum or elsewhere. What concerns me is an LSA manufacturer blatantly advertising capabilities that would clearly require the aircraft to be flown significantly outside the envelope. Frankly, I'm disappointed in Flight Design -- I had expected better from them.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

rsteele wrote: Im 6'9" and 300lbs and did all my training in an Echo Super. Very tight for me, but doable.

I'm glad that worked out for you. Honestly, I wouldn't attempt to train a 300 pounder in my Evektor (I've published a rather arbitrary 250 pound weight limit, which I will violate on occasion -- but only after we've both tried sitting in the plane). Even though my plane could carry you, me, and 17 gallons of fuel, I suspect it would be just too uncomfortable for both of us. Hopefully, your Echo Super isn't quite as cramped.

We have a DPE around here who also weighs 300 pounds. He will not do checkrides in LSAs (his discretion, of course, but it kinda makes it tough on my graduates, who have to import a lighter DPE from 100 miles away).

Remember when all adults weighed exactly 170 pounds, by FAA mandate? I'm sure glad they're no longer enforcing that FAR. :wink:

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

drseti wrote: roger lee wrote: Some aircraft have bigger cabins.

That CT-MC is a beautiful concept. Full specs are at http://flightdesign.com/files/Media/Brochure%20MC2011LQ_EUR.pdf. However, if you do a reality check, some things just don't add up. 1320 pounds max gross, and 794 typical empty weight, leaves 526 pounds useful load. Then, they say the plane will accommodate two occupants of 265 pounds each, which equals 530 pounds. So, with maximum passenger weight, you're already four pounds over gross, with zero fuel!

Having been around the Flight Design stuff for a while I think what you read and what was meant are 2 different things. The CT has a 120kg or 260lb max seat weight. This is what I think they are trying to get across, and the fact that you have 2 seats. Tom

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

3Dreaming wrote: Having been around the Flight Design stuff for a while I think what you read and what was meant are 2 different things.

That may well be, Tom. The specs in their brochure (page 31) say:
Quote: Occupants: 2 x max 120 kg 265 lb
which can very easily be interpreted as implying 530 pounds worth of occupants total. Maybe something got lost in translation...

Aerco · Joined: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 68 Location: Corona CA

drseti wrote:
We have a DPE around here who also weighs 300 pounds. He will not do checkrides in LSAs (his discretion, of course, but it kinda makes it tough on my graduates, who have to import a lighter DPE from 100 miles away).

:

How does such a DPE make any money - he'd have a hard time getting into any aircraft, not just LSAs!

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1390 Location: Lock Haven PA

Aerco wrote: How does such a DPE make any money - he'd have a hard time getting into any aircraft, not just LSAs!

Good point. Mostly multi, instrument, and commercial, I guess (in planes big enough to accommodate him). Fact is, the FAA has no maximum weight limit for DPEs. I guess us small guys just naturally gravitate toward LSA, and the big guys all fly A36 Bonanzas.

Jon V · Joined: 21 Apr 2011 Posts: 156 Location: Dallas...

drseti wrote: I guess us small guys just naturally gravitate toward LSA, and the big guys all fly A36 Bonanzas.

Hah... I know a pilot who is about 6'6" ... very tall guy.

He has a half share of an A36.

He also (as a thought for the OP) has/flies an RV-8A experimental (which he bought fully built with a few hundred hours on, complete with CS prop and decent electronics, for about the price of some new LSAs). He likes the A36, he waxes poetical about the RV.

(And yeah, plenty o' money, he's got it.)