Sport Pilot Talk

Hambone · Joined: 07 Jan 2011 Posts: 67 Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE

Not a pleasant topic, but I can see rising prices having a major negative impact, especially on training.

cogito · Joined: 24 Mar 2011 Posts: 29 Location: Los Angeles

Sure, high fuel prices can have a negative impact on GA training, but might flying sport planes, which burn half the fuel of a C172, gain converts? Also, a sport pilot student spends fewer hours burning that more expensive fuel.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

cogito wrote: a sport pilot student spends fewer hours burning that more expensive fuel.

And, LSAs used to be able to use less costly auto fuel. Unfortunately, that is no longer true. In many parts of the country, it is impossible to buy auto gas without ethanol. In many LSA airframes, and some engines, ethanol is strictly verboten. So, we're stuck with that expensive 100LL which, in addition to the cost, deposits lead all over our engines, reducing their life and raising maintenance costs.

The fuel efficiency of LSAs, however, and the reduced training hours, will help to mitigate this situation somewhat.

zaitcev · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 256 Location: Albuquerque, NM

People running small engines can buy ethanol-free gasoline (it's called "packaged gasoline"), but that stuff is even more expensive than 100LL. Otherwise, go to pure-gas.org.

In Santa Fe, NM, the only pure gas station is coincidentially located right across from the airport. The Remos N28GX is run on autogas, as apparently are quite a few other airplanes on the field. Can you say supply and demand -- of course the corrupt government regulators may be influenced by the powerful interests, but Santa Fe is the state capital and respectable pilot citizens can bribe, er., lobby with the best of the Big Ethanol's lapdogs in our state.

Pilots of turbocharged airplanes are screwed though.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:06 pm Post subject:

There are a number of things happening on the anti-E10 front, altho' their future impact is hard to predict. In addition to the Pur-Gas website (sorry Paul, but I don't see any of the PA retailers in Lockhaven), there is a new organization trying to connect all those with 'special' (non-E10) gas needs into a lobbying group that will motivate fuel suppliers to modify their distribution scheme. Boat & marine engine operators, restored auto & motorcycle owners, and airplane owners all fit into this category. And today, you can still buy ethanol-free gas at most marine fueling stations (larger lakes, coastal waters) for not much more than the cost of E10 gas at the local pump.

This issue has now hit here in Australia, where E10 'regular' is being sold at a lower price (by several cents/liter) than the 'regular regular', motivating buyers to switch voluntarily. Presumably, the non-E10 'regular' will then disappear. But many airplane owners here are quite concerned and are just waking up to the ethanol-related issues. The business model of the LSA flight school I visited outside Brisbane is predicated in part on buying local non-E10 gas at the gas station just down the street from the airport. The self-service fuel farm on the field only offers 100LL. They would have to modify their rates if only a bit should their oil changes double, but their Rotax powered engines and modern LSA tanks & fuel lines would accommodate the ethanol. And they find students where the gas is 50% more than in the States.

But to your initial Q, Ham: Increased fuel costs will just be one additional cost factor, added to all the other cost factors that have tended to suffocate General Aviation over the last few decades. My guess: Possible students will just once again 'run the numbers' against the two basic motivations for learning to fly: how much is it simply something they have to do, something they've always dreamed of doing (the 'dream' factor) and how much utility might it later bring them in their lives (the 'practical' factor). And a few more potential students will conclude it's just not worth it. Such a shame...

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

Jack Tyler wrote: (sorry Paul, but I don't see any of the PA retailers in Lockhaven)

Nor within 150 miles of here, Jack. I've been tracking this situation most proactively, and pursuing other avenues. There is a fuel distillery in Allentown PA (about 150 miles away) that is willing to sell us 91UL ethanol-free, and a trucking company that is willing to haul it, and an available fuel truck on the airport, and a supportive airport manager. Now, it's just a question of cost and quantity.

It's not economically feasible to haul just 1200 or 1500 gallons that distance, but if I can get three or four other airports to throw in with us, there's still a chance we can make this work. The guy spearheading all of this is Kent from Aviation Fuel Club. He's a go-getter, and I remain guardedly optimistic.

Yes, Rotax has now authorized E10. Nobody is sure what the long-term effects will be, and quite a few of the airframe manufacturers specifically exclude ethanol. I can see why, in my wet-wing SportStar. Ethanol is an excellent solvent, and the sealants that hold the fuel in the wings would probably be impacted. The only time I want a weeping wing is when I'm de-icing.

bshort · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Ca

Just had this conversation with the owner of the plane I rent. He will be adjusting his fee to compensate for the rising costs. 91 is over 4.50 out here and 100LL I saw for 5.69 last week. Will I fly any less because of fuel costs? No.

RyanShort1 · Joined: 17 Aug 2010 Posts: 101 Location: San Antonio, TX

The ethanol issue is a really bad deal. We ran Cubs and a lot of older aircraft down here on unleaded for years, and then it all went away this past year because of the stupid ethanol rules. All this at a time when everyone's trying to kill our 100LL... Oh the irony. I think that fuel prices are going to hurt everyone in the long run, but there will still be a market.

Ryan

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

bshort wrote: Will I fly any less because of fuel costs? No.

That's the spirit!

NCPilot · Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject:

bshort wrote: Will I fly any less because of fuel costs? No.

Hear hear! I won't fly any less because of fuel cost either!

dstclair · Joined: 06 Mar 2008 Posts: 212 Location: Allen, TX

I'm still hoping for Swift Fuel to win the Avgas derby. Non-petroleum based fuel, domestic supply, binary ingredients and more energy than 100LL. They claim it could be sold for less than the current fuels. Don't know if I buy that but the cost should be somewhat constant due to the simplicity and local supply options. Tests have all been positive but this will be more of a political process than fact-based.

But we'll probably end up with 100VLL for 10 years so we can prolong finding a real solution and further stifle innovation....

jnmeade · Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

Our EAA Chapter 33 had our 50th anniversary recently and Rod Hightower, president of EAA, spoke. He said that 100LL is not going away soon. He said that EPA has not and will not set a timetable on it until and unless a suitable replacement is found.

Is this credible? All I can tell you is I heard it from the man's lips.

bryancobb · Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:14 am Post subject: Marathon 90 and 91

These 2 fuels are certified ethanol free and can be obtained from the distributor, by private individuals, 250 gallons at a time, or distributed to your local airport or any ANY station, if there's enough local interest.

My local Shell Oil distributor has it at the pump for 3.71 per gallon.

http://www.marathonpetroleum.com/content/documents/mpc/msds/0314MAR019.pdf

http://www.marathonpetroleum.com/content/documents/mpc/msds/0313MAR019.pdf

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

drseti wrote: Jack Tyler wrote: (sorry Paul, but I don't see any of the PA retailers in Lockhaven)

Nor within 150 miles of here, Jack. I've been tracking this situation most proactively, and pursuing other avenues. There is a fuel distillery in Allentown PA (about 150 miles away) that is willing to sell us 91UL ethanol-free, and a trucking company that is willing to haul it, and an available fuel truck on the airport, and a supportive airport manager. Now, it's just a question of cost and quantity.

It's not economically feasible to haul just 1200 or 1500 gallons that distance, but if I can get three or four other airports to throw in with us, there's still a chance we can make this work. The guy spearheading all of this is Kent from Aviation Fuel Club. He's a go-getter, and I remain guardedly optimistic.

Yes, Rotax has now authorized E10. Nobody is sure what the long-term effects will be, and quite a few of the airframe manufacturers specifically exclude ethanol. I can see why, in my wet-wing SportStar. Ethanol is an excellent solvent, and the sealants that hold the fuel in the wings would probably be impacted. The only time I want a weeping wing is when I'm de-icing.

They should be able to split the load with other auto fuels for a service station. No need to get other airports to buy some. The place where I get mine from keeps it a their service station for the others who want no ethanol.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

Unfortunately, my state now has a law prohibiting service stations from selling ethan-free fuel! :(