Sport Pilot Talk

tu16 · Joined: 18 Feb 2010 Posts: 85 Location: Bellevue, WA

While mountain fllying in LSA may be something a sensible person should not attempt as a sport pilot, but living between Olympics and Cascades makes me wonder anyway - what if a sport pilot wants to learn basics of mountain flying in LSA - where would you go for training?

I could, for example, fly out (on a commercial airline :) ) for a mountain flying course to a well known schools in ID, MT, UT, CO. But their training fleet does not normally have LSA in it, so I wouldn't be able to fly them neither as PIC, nor comfortably. Not sure how much if anything I'd learn about flying LSA in mountains trying to manage in difficult conditions some Cessna first time in my life with instructor helping out on controls.

Another option is to fly out there in LSA (assuming I own one by that time) . If this first mountain flight conducted w/o training succeeds :) -I could invite instructor to fly the course in LSA. But then it can be the first time the instructor would fly in LSA in very challenging conditions. This kinda unnerving too - knowing the statistics of LSA crashes that highlights disproportionally large number for very experienced pilots coming from heavier GA planes.

What is your opinion on the subject? Are there reputable mountain flying instruction in LSA that you know of (preferrably in the Pacific NorthWest)? And if not - what is the best way for a sport pilot to get the basic mountain flying training?

Thanks!
Alex.

jnmeade · Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

I don't know of any such training, but I'd be interested in it it if I were ever close by.

Perhaps there are LSA type airplanes such as a J3 being used for training somewhere?

tu16 · Joined: 18 Feb 2010 Posts: 85 Location: Bellevue, WA

jnmeade wrote:
Perhaps there are LSA type airplanes such as a J3 being used for training somewhere?

I think I've seen on the net a couple running a school in a Cub, not sure if this is LSA-qualified version.

This is actually another thing - everybody in mountain flying schools is flying these taildragging bushplanes capable landing and takeoff on these rough and tiny unimproved mountain strips.

I do not have the taildragger endorsement and I'm not partularly interested in becoming a bush pilot or landing on unimproved strips in the mountains in circumstances other than forced or a pre-cautionary landing. I woud expect that can be survived in tricycle too. I'd be more interesting in actually be able to safely *flying* there - either as a sightseeing trip or a crossing...

jnmeade · Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

I'd think a J3 cub, which fits LSA criteria unless it's been modified, would give enough of the feel for mountain flying to be very helpful, even if it's not identical to your own aircraft. Not the same, but better than nothing, I guess.

ibgarrett · Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 147 Location: Westminster, CO

I'm a member of Skyraider Aviation http://www.skyraideraviation.com/ here in the Denver Metro area and we have a gentleman here who does a mountain flying course for LSA's.

I know it's probably a long way to go, but we definitely do mountain flying here. Gotta be careful with it though....

zaitcev · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 256 Location: Albuquerque, NM

Actually, is there anything in Mountain training that goes beyond "don't be an idiot and kill yourself"? I keep reading about people who turn into blind valleys, or climb against the terrain (sometimes in IMC). The problem with mountains I think is not accounting for how quickly weather can change and pressing ahead when it's clear that the plan isn't working. I am getting a distinct impression that if a pilot has the clear head and the guts to cut losses and divert, there's nothing particular about mountain flying.

P.S. There's a bunch of practical weather knowledge associcated with mountains, and I am sure I would've known way more about it if I did not cancel whenver clouds looked threathening (e.g. if I were a FedEx Caravan pilot). But that can be gotten from books.

tu16 · Joined: 18 Feb 2010 Posts: 85 Location: Bellevue, WA

zaitcev wrote: Actually, is there anything in Mountain training that goes beyond "don't be an idiot and kill yourself"? I keep reading about people who turn into blind valleys, or climb against the terrain (sometimes in IMC). The problem with mountains I think is not accounting for how quickly weather can change and pressing ahead when it's clear that the plan isn't working. I am getting a distinct impression that if a pilot has the clear head and the guts to cut losses and divert, there's nothing particular about mountain flying.

P.S. There's a bunch of practical weather knowledge associcated with mountains, and I am sure I would've known way more about it if I did not cancel whenver clouds looked threathening (e.g. if I were a FedEx Caravan pilot). But that can be gotten from books.

This is a fair question. I think it is more about the definition of an "idiot" .

Would I be an idiot to try to fly through that pretty canyon in this weather or around Mt. Rainier w/o any training or previous experience - meaning w/o an experienced mountain flyer by my side - but with the book about mountain flying on my nighttable? (Especially knowing that authors of most respectable books died in plane crashes in a mountainous terrain)

From what I read in these books - aside from obvious but important performance-related strategies, I got the impression that practical reading of the local "weather" (air currents) that includes expected location of local to your position lifts, sinks, rotors and their magnitude in the specific terrain and weather conditions and associated tactics and skills seems like something to be safer experienced first with the benefit of experienced flyer by your side. Mountain air currents can present a danger for a light plane even in the absense of what many would percieve as "dangerous" clouds.

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

If your not worried about landing on the back woods strips then any CFI that knows the area should be able to do the type of training you want. A lot of times it is just knowing how high you need to be to cross this, or not to go when the wind is like that, so any CFI that flies in the area should be able to teach you that.

saintlfd · Joined: 17 Jul 2009 Posts: 47 Location: ARGYLE, TEXAS

Check out www.stick-rudder.com

Looks like a potential LSA mountain flight school.

ibgarrett · Joined: 04 Dec 2008 Posts: 147 Location: Westminster, CO

This may come across as rather naive (with good reason because I haven't a clue on this) but how much difference could there seriously be between flying a fully-loaded LSA at 1320 and something a one or two thousand pounds heaver be?

Granted the HP issue is a strong argument, but with additional weight additional horsepower is necessary.

I've been tossed around plenty in an LSA both in and out of the mountains and I know when I have absolutely no business flying in the mtns with an LSA (which is most of the time). I've been caught in some reasonably nasty downdrafts in the plains where I was full throttle in a climb position and barely holding my altitude. The mtn waves are obviously something that can be much worse.

I've also read reports from other pilots who fly high-performance planes getting caught in downdrafts that knocked them down 1,000 feet in a matter of seconds.

I would think prudent pre-flight decision making and understanding where to be most prudent in your mtn flying would be critical of any mtn flying, whether it's LSA or a traditional plane

Am I wrong in that thinking?

bshort · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Ca

www.mountaincanyonflying.com...place in Idaho does mountain training and one of their videos has someone flying a Challenger. Quite possible they have some lsa experience.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:23 pm Post subject:

Revisiting the original post, Alex asked: "...living between Olympics and Cascades makes me wonder - what if a sport pilot wants to learn basics of mountain flying in LSA - where would you go for training?"

I recommend you look for such training in your own area. Both the mountain ranges you mention are under the influence of the prevailing westerlies, the eastward migration of LP cells that come ashore off the NW Pacific Ocean, and they are different geographically from e.g. the Rockies further E and SE. In short, they are somewhat unique and, logic would suggest, the ranges you would more likely be flying in, near and across.

As to the broader question about what should one think of using an LSA for flights over such terrain, IMO it depends a great deal on the kind of flying you intend to be doing (as well as the experience & training you bring to the task). If you work M-F and think most of your flying will be on weekends (narrow time periods) and on vacations (when both departure and return dates can be fairly firmly fixed on the calendar), I'd wonder if you weren't setting yourself up for some nasty experiences. OTOH if you have an open-ended or flexible schedule and can work with the weather rather than fight it, I don't see mountain flying to be mutually exclusive with flying an LSA.

tu16 · Joined: 18 Feb 2010 Posts: 85 Location: Bellevue, WA

Thanks to everyone here for the feedback!

Lots of good advice and info - as usual :) ( You, guys, are the best! :) )
As Jack suggested I'll probably should start by locating an instructor with local knowledge for the flying area.

Thanks again!
Alex.

Paul Hamilton · Joined: 21 May 2007 Posts: 351 Location: Reno/Tahoe Nevada

We do mountain training as part of out program. Check out the pictures at:

http://sportaviationcenter.com/media/photos-images/

and

http://sportaviationcenter.com/location/lake-tahoe-scenic-location/

beautiful mountain flying.

NCPilot · Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 10:12 am Post subject:

Anyone does mountain flying training in the Appalachia? I wouldn't mind learning how to fly in the Appalachia terrain, it's a very beautiful place to visit in the fall and I wouldn't mind flying the entire length of the blue ridge parkway.