Sport Pilot Talk

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

Fellow instructors,
If any of you have trained young Sport Pilots, maybe you can help me with an answer. We all know that a student Sport Pilot must possess either an FAA medical or a valid state-issued driver's license before he or she can solo, and must also be at least 16 years of age. In some states, a full driver's license is not issued until age 17. Before that, the student may have a valid, state-issued Learner's Permit. Does this count as a driver's license, for purposes of establishing medical fitness? Or, must such young students get an FAA medical certificate (or perhaps wait until age 17 to solo)?

jnmeade · Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

i don't know the answer but will offer a couple of obervations.

1. The state issues motorcycle licenses, semi-licenses, car licenses and other things that are called a drivers license. If the learners permit is a subset of something called a drivers license, then I'd argue it is a drivers license for FAA purposes. I'm sure you'd say your automobile license is just as good as my comercial class A semi license for sport pilot purposes.

2. If the "learners permit" involves the same kinds of approvals physcially, mentally, etc. that standard drivers license does, then I'd argue it provides all the protections the drivers license would and I'd call it a drivers license.

Keep us posted on what you determine or learn.

ka7eej · Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 177 Location: Taylor, Az

The FAA considers Student Pilot a certificate when asked on form 8710-11 if you now hold a Pilots Certificate. So following through a Learners Permit should be all you would need. In most states, I believe, you have to show up in person, take an eye test, and pass a written test to get a learners permit. To get a drivers license you usually just have to be a certain age and/or have had permit for so many months and then pass a driving test to get licensed...

Brian

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

ka7eej wrote: In most states, I believe, you have to show up in person, take an eye test, and pass a written test to get a learners permit.

In my state (PA), to get a learner's permit one has to have a physical exam, and bring a physician's report, as well as taking a written test, eye test, and submitting both a birth certificate and a Social Security card. Clearly (at least in this state) the learner's permit would seem to satisfy the intent of the FARs. But since the driving rules do vary from state to state, I have to wonder what the FAA will actually accept. (Of course, it's prudent not to ask the FAA, unless you're prepared to hear an answer you're not going to like.)

ka7eej · Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 177 Location: Taylor, Az

Better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission????

Brian

zdc · Guest

drseti wrote: ka7eej wrote: In most states, I believe, you have to show up in person, take an eye test, and pass a written test to get a learners permit.

In my state (PA), to get a learner's permit one has to have a physical exam, and bring a physician's report, as well as taking a written test, eye test, and submitting both a birth certificate and a Social Security card. Clearly (at least in this state) the learner's permit would seem to satisfy the intent of the FARs. But since the driving rules do vary from state to state, I have to wonder what the FAA will actually accept. (Of course, it's prudent not to ask the FAA, unless you're prepared to hear an answer you're not going to like.)

The regulation states "license" not "permit". Pretty simple, I think. The intent of the regulation seems to go beyond medical qualifications. A Sport Pilot must comply with any restrictions placed upon the license to include any administrative actions such as "to and from work only". I know of no such restrictions for PPL. In Virginia, a parent of an offspring that is less than 18 years of age, may contact the DMV and have their childs license revoked, with no reason or justification required by DMV.

N918KT · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:14 am Post subject:

Where I come from, in NJ to get a learner's permit, you need to have an eye exam, that's pretty much what the physical is going to be like, in addition to passing the writtten.

I do remember that 1 or 2 years ago, all young drivers under the age of 21 has to get a graduated driver's license and have a sticker put on the car to know that a teen driver is driving the car. I think this is called the Kyleigh's Law. However, since I upgraded my driver's license from provisional/graduated to basic drivers license a month before the new law went into effect, I think I don't need the graduated drivers license and was grandfathered into the old law or something like that.

bryancobb · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:46 am Post subject: Thinking Out Loud

Paul,
There are several reasons the FAA has decided that having a valid driver's license is adequate and needed for Sport Flying.

First, and most obvious is of course the idea that a driver can't get a drivers license unless they are medically screened, somewhat.

The second, less obvious reason is that it gets the driver into a national database of criminal tracking .

The third, and perhaps most important, FAA-wise, is the fact that drivers' records are closely tracked related to DUI's, alcohol and drugs.

Now for the FAA's purposes, if the holder of a learner's permit has been medically screened to the same standard or higher, as a LICENSE HOLDER, if the holder of a learner's permit has been entered into a national database of criminal tracking, and if the driving record of the holder of a learner's permit will reflect any DUI's, then I would be totally confortable (If I was a DPE) to issue a 16 YO, a student certificate, and as an instructor, I would be totally comfortable soloing them.

This question may help answer.
Q: Could a 16 YO go to an AME, take a 3rd class physical, get a medical certificate/student pilot's license, and be signed off to solo a 172, if all this kid had was a Learner's Permit?
A: Yes

Another question to help answer.
Q: Does the FAA want unhealthies, drunks, addicts, or criminals flying?
A: No

jnmeade · Guest Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

zdc wrote: The regulation states "license" not "permit". Pretty simple, I think. The intent of the regulation seems to go beyond medical qualifications. A Sport Pilot must comply with any restrictions placed upon the license to include any administrative actions such as "to and from work only".

I agree. The question, of course, is terminology. In Iowa, the document called a Learners Permit is very obviously listed as a form of Drivers License. The FAA is looking for a Drivers License. Looking at a few state web sites, they mostly call this document a Learners Permit but most seem to consider it a form or subset of Drivers License.

I suspect one would have to go to each state's law to see where the Learners Permit fits under the licensing program. In Iowa, I would have no worry at all. For other states, I'd check to be sure.

drseti · Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:15 am Post subject:

Thanks for weighing in, folks. Since we have all expressed a spectrum of opinions, and none of us wants to go to the FAA with this one, I guess it comes down to the DPE Paul H., if you're monitoring this thread, would you issue a student sport pilot certif to someone over the age of 16 but with a state-issued learner's permit? Have you encountered such cases?

jnmeade · Guest Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

Paul,
Why don't you help yourself out and do some basic research on the license status for the state in question? But, I'd check the statute and the regs, not ask some drivers license clerk who is used to the casual name but not necessarily the legal status.

You may answer your own question or at least have a specific reference for the DPE to use. The DPE may want that reference when sending the paperwork forward.

Helen · Guest Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

I checked with 610 a while back and was told that it does not count.

Helen

drseti · Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:54 am Post subject:

Thank you, Helen. Though the answer disappoints me, it is always better to know than to speculate.

bryancobb · Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:50 am Post subject: IF

So I guess, since most all 16yo kids who want to fly can pass the physical, I suppose they can go get a medical III and use that TAN card as their Sport Pilot Student Pilot's Certificate.

After all, a Student Pilot's Certificate is a VALID Student Pilot's Certificate if it's issued by an AME or a DPE... right?

drseti · Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:56 am Post subject: Re: IF

bryancobb wrote: So I guess, since most all 16yo kids who want to fly can pass the physical, I suppose they can go get a medical III and use that TAN card as their Sport Pilot Student Pilot's Certificate.

Yes, I know that's possible, and I've had students do that. It's just a shame that folks who don't really need an FAA medical, who want only to fly as Sport Pilots, have to go through that expense, jump through that hoop, and risk rejection.