Sport Pilot Talk

Hambone · Joined: 07 Jan 2011 Posts: 67 Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE

I really like the classic look, increased performance, and simplicity of a taildragger. I'm setting up a small Sport Pilot training operation.

I can think of two issues:

1) Increased insurance premiums

2) Newly qualified sport pilots will have to check out in a trike before renting or buying.

Any other issues to consider?

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

Hambone wrote: Any other issues to consider?

Don't overlook the fear factor, Ham. Many prospective students have heard the groundloop horror stories, and will be reluctant to train in a conventional landing gear. Others will consider taildraggers antiquated technology, and prefer to train in what they perceive as "modern" aircraft. Thus, your student population will likely be smaller than with a tricycle gear. (OTOH, as Cub Flyer can tell you, there won't be much competition in attracting those students who specifically wish to fly a taildragger.)

FLA-CFI · Joined: 27 Oct 2008 Posts: 45

We just bought a cub to add to our fleet (Remos G3 and PiperSport). The demand is incredible, as we are the only school within 2 hours offering tailwheel training and no place to go fly in a cub nearby as well.

The problem with the T/W is with current pilots who fly those tri-gear planes...they are dangerous in a t/w without the proper training and many many hours.

Initials in a t/w are much easier than transitions.

The entry price point is right....a cub restored cub is around 35k-40k....about a 3rd what a new LSA will cost you.

Plus everyone knows what a cub is!

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

FLA-CFI wrote: Plus everyone knows what a cub is!

Especially up here in Lock Haven, where they all were born! Downside of using antique Sport Pilot Eligible aircraft (aside from insurance costs) is that our LSRM-A and Rotax certificates are worthless...

Adam, if your schedule permits, bring your Cub up to the Sentimental Journey to Cub Haven, June 22 - 25. Camp under the wing, and the beer is on me!

FLA-CFI · Joined: 27 Oct 2008 Posts: 45

drseti wrote: FLA-CFI wrote: Plus everyone knows what a cub is!

Especially up here in Lock Haven, where they all were born! Downside of using antique Sport Pilot Eligible aircraft (aside from insurance costs) is that our LSRM-A and Rotax certificates are worthless...

Ah, almost all were born there except for a few thousand in '46 and '47, those years piper had a factory in Oklahoma to build the J-3. That is in fact where mine was built.

And you are correct that a LSRM would not be able to work on it....but what possibly could go wrong with a cub. In the 2500 hours on our LSA aircraft the biggest problem we have has to do with the electrical system....the cub doesn't have one (one of the many reasons we picked it).

drseti wrote:
Adam, if your schedule permits, bring your Cub up to the Sentimental Journey to Cub Haven, June 22 - 25. Camp under the wing, and the beer is on me!

We'll have to see how my schedule works out...That would be one long flight at 65mph however.

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

Yes, useful load, hand propping, and engine tear downs.

Most of the classic taildraggers were built when Americans were a lot smaller and don't have much useful load. That's doubly the case if an electric starter has been added (something you'll probably want in a flight school environment).

Another issue is that when (note I didn't say "if") your students ground loop the plane, with an American engine a prop strike will likely put you out of business for a month or more while the engine is torn down.

I've been discussing the possibility of a Rotax cub with Cub Crafters that would avoid most all of these problems. They need a minimum order of 4 to make the project feasible. Drop me a line if that's something you'd be interested in.

Helen

PS. What do trikes have to do with taildraggers???

flyboy2007 · Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 79 Location: wisconsin

I don't know why everyone gets in an up roar about taildraggers. That is all they had years ago and it was no big deal. The taildragger pilot is a much better pilot than one who has not flown one.(just my oppinion) and not just saying that because I am one. I also do not believe the WHEN they ground loop it either. If properly trained there should not be a problem with any kind of ground looping at all. The taildragger just makes you keep working and not be a lazy pilot. Don't get me wrong if you do not keep on top of it you will sooner or later have a problem but thats why there is training.

deltafox · Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 89

hmmm. So why do you think the insurance rates are higher?

RyanShort1 · Joined: 17 Aug 2010 Posts: 101 Location: San Antonio, TX

deltafox wrote: hmmm. So why do you think the insurance rates are higher?
Bad training, and lazy pilots.

Ryan

NCPilot · Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject:

Are taildraggers better in grass strips than Tricycles, or is it a wash?

Jack Tyler · Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject:

Many pro's & con's. WRT a grass strip, I'd say it's not a 'wash' but rather primarily a choice between two distinct disadvantages. A tail dragger will never run the risk, as speed decreases in the landing after wheel contact, of its nose wheel being plopped onto a rut or into a gopher hole. It simply has no nose gear, so in no way will the unimproved runway and the nose wheel (& it's support structure tied back to the fire wall) come in conflict. Of course, the tail dragger's directional control due to the a/c CG vs. landing gear configuration is the disadvantage (aka: ground loop) but one the Tri-gear a/c is much less likely to experience.

But lots of other ways to compare/contrast them. E.g. if you are looking at a specific a/c type (e.g. LSA high wings), talk with an insurance broker about the premium difference for a/c that are of similar value and age (and with the same pilot) but have two different landing gear configurations. The premiums are unlikely to be the same unless you have lots of tail dragger time.

Cub flyer · Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 593

Taildragger instruction is very safe and the students do not destroy the airplane. Contrary to what the insurance companies believe. I've had a cub in the flight school since 1986 and have NEVER had any damage to the airplanes done by a ground loop. 450 hours instruction per year. Pavement and grass. I've had lots of groundloops with the maule tailwheel. It does no damage just keep the throttle back, elevators up and ailerons neutral if you are going backwards. Hang on and try to get stopped as soon as you can. when it stops continue with the lesson. No big deal.

Some tricks. We start with grass, Then move to takeoffs on pavement and landing on grass. Finally end up all pavement for wheel landings, then to private strips with grass one way in and out on side hills. Crosswind landings of all types. I want them proficient enough for a one wheel touch and go before signing off.

3 point landings solo regardless of wind conditions until they are very practiced. Wheel landing because of a crosswind is a myth in a light taildragger. Get tail up high enough to be in clean air on takeoff

Keep the brakes in good shape. Consider the disk brake mod. The 8.00X4 tires are expensive but work best.

Don't use a maule tailwheel. A scott or Bushwheels 3200 pneumatic works best. They are pricy at $975 new but it will save your airplane. Tailwheel spring arch is important. The tailwheel pivot axis should be tipped bottom edge forward of vertical with the airplane unloaded. Use the correct steerings springs and chains for your airplane.

Very carefully look over the landing gear before starting training. There should be no misalignment. You should be able to takeoff calm wind on smooth pavement with very little rudder use and climb with no right rudder or stick input.

Stock 65 hp J-3. Climb at 55, Land at 60. Stock airplane with simple plain dope finish and rigged to piper specs is lightest and flies best

McCauley metal prop helps climb. Slick impluse mags are lightest and least radio noise. Flybaby homepage has all the Harry Fenton articles on engine MX. Check aileron cable wear in the strut fairleads. DO NOT install stainless control cables.

Don't lube the elevator trim cable. Only the jackscrew. Keep 11-15 PSI in the tires to prevent valvestem creep.

Battery intercom in upper left wing root, Sigtronics works best. Battery kitchen timer velcroed to the panel for billing. Install recording tach for MX.

I give all the students the option to learn to hand prop. They all still have arms. Get a mechanic who has rebuilt a cub to do the prebuy.

Less weight the better. It's the enemy with 65 hp. The cub does real nice lazy 8's, chandelles and is very easy to fly. It requires little rudder and the controls are well harmonized contrary to popular myth.
Univair stocks plenty of parts. They are pricy but available. The doors open for ventilation in summer. Heat is not great in winter but seal up most of the air leaks and dress for outside. No boots. Skis are fun but need careful rigging. I'll probably think of other stuff. Tint the skylight, Lube controls and gear often.

A cub rigged correctly flies great. one rigged wrong flies like $%^@$^

It's all adjustable but have someone who knows cubs check it. They have all been apart in somebodies basement by now at least once.

Cub flyer · Joined: 10 Sep 2006 Posts: 593

One thing I forgot. The student comes and wants to fly. I just point at the PA-11 and say ok lets go. There is no discussion of tailwheel or it might be harder. It's a plane and they want to learn to fly it. The wheel is back here and it steers with the rudder most of the time. simple.

No problems. They don't suspect it's different until they start getting aviation magazines. By then it's too late and they have it figured out.

I've had lots of people horrified about trying nosewheel. They just can't fathom letting the nose down after touchdown. It really freaks them out the first landing. Especially the Skipper which sits really nose low on the ground. Some guys are all over the place steering with direct pedals in a cherokee or colt. Other times they can't figure out how to taxi around the gas pumps without a swiveling tailwheel, Or they are so worried about banging the nosewheel on the pavement they flare 20 feet high.

What's really funny is watching the tailwheel students try to fly the PA-11 when I install the nosewheel. They are all over the place in the pattern and landing. I just say it's the same airplane, land it the same way you always have. The nose simply comes down as it slows. It's all relative to how you were taught.

deltafox · Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 89

I first soloed in a Champ, but then got away from taildraggers for awhile. By the time I got back to it I had forgotten the basics. This book does a good job explaining what is happening (I especially like the term 'jounce'.)

http://www.amazon.com/Compleat-Taildragger-Pilot-Harvey-Plourde/dp/0963913700

bryancobb · Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 7:41 am Post subject: Fitfox

I got a primary student after 2 other instructors, one a DPE, had said he was unteachable in his Kitfox with the Maule Tailwheel. He had scared both of them.

A Kitfox is as squirrelly as they come!!!! In two weeks I had him doing 3-point and wheel landings on grass and on asphalt, and the brakes on his Kitfox are basically non-existent. I had NEVER flown a Kitfox until he let me get the required 5 hours in his. My first takeoff and landing in his was solo without any instruction at all. I became Kitfox-Self-Taught in 5 hours. Before that, I only had 10 hours in a Champ and a tailwheel endorsement. Not much TW experience, myself.

It is DEFINITELY a mindset, and I agree with Cub Flyer that the more ignorant the student is about conventional vs. trike, THE BETTER.