Sport Pilot Talk

Hambone · Joined: 07 Jan 2011 Posts: 67 Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE

From a motorglider website:

"Reasons hands down to fly a motorglider vs. light sport aircraft (LSA):

* > Fly in a motorglider in a proven, certified airframe with a standard airworthiness certificate - utility category.
* > Fly above 10,000 feet MSL - in fact powered or un-powered soaring flight is possible to FL 180 and beyond.
(Sky King Soaring has been up to FL 220 without the engine!)
* Fly VFR over the top. Fly even IFR in a motor glider if so equipped and rated.
* Fly in a motorglider with a cruise speed of 120 KTS and above.
* Fly in a motorglider with a GW up to 1698# to lessen the effects of turbulence.
* Glide in a motorglider without a tow plane. Cover long distances as a sailplane engine-off. Go international.
* Fly with your guests in your motorglider and charge them when you own a commercial glider license.
* Fly a motorglider (and glider) even if your medical certificate has been revoked.
* Fly without a medical even if you are not an american resident - no drivers license needed."

If this is all true, aren't these valid advantages to flying a modern, high-speed (>120 kts) touring motorglider (i.e. Pipistrel) over an LSA?

And, apart from the higher purchase cost, what are the disadvantages?

Motorglider definition:

7. ACCEPTABLE CRITERIA.
b. Additional Criteria for Powered Gliders.
(1) Powered fixed wing gliders may be type certificated under Section 21.17(b) if:
(i) The number of occupants does not exceed two;
(ii) Maximum weight does not exceed 850 kg (1874 pounds); and
(iii) The maximum weight to wing span squared (w/b2) does not exceed 3.0 kg/M2 (0.62 lb./ft.2).

Couldn't many LSA aircraft fit the motorglider category by complying with the .62lb/ft2 criteria with a larger wing and thereby eliminate the limiting LSA weather, speed, and weight restrictions? Is certification the factor that makes this economically impractical?

Does this mean that one can fly an IFR-equipped motorglider in IMC/night/above 10,000'/above 120 kts on an instrument ticket without a current medical?

If the IFR-equipped motorglider also meets SLSA criteria, can it be used for sport pilot use?

bshort · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Ca

Wouldn't you need a private with glider rating? If so, that would be a hands down reason for LSA.

Hambone · Joined: 07 Jan 2011 Posts: 67 Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE

Good point. That's a biggie!

Also, after doing a few computations, I realize that the span loading limitation requires either 1) a huge wing span and/or 2) very low useful load and/or lightweight aircraft. An 1874 lb gross weight motorglider requires a minimum 56 foot wingspan, and a 30 foot wingspan motorglider could have a max gross weight of only 540 lbs!

Having said that, it looks like the Pipistrel Sinus and long-wing Virus http://www.pipistrel.si/plane/sinus/overview both meet the FAA motorglider criteria. They also qualify in the USA as SLSAs.

KSCessnaDriver · Joined: 25 Jan 2009 Posts: 159 Location: KOJC

bshort wrote: Wouldn't you need a private with glider rating? If so, that would be a hands down reason for LSA.

You don't need a medical to get a glider certificate though, right?

bshort · Joined: 09 Jul 2010 Posts: 59 Location: Ca

If a medical was not required, I could see where this may be beneficial to a current private pilot. If one was just starting out, medical would be required throughout the private solo and checkride for ASEL. Then add on a glider rating....little drawn out and pricey if just looking for the glider rating only. I'll stick with plain ol' LSA

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

bshort wrote: If a medical was not required, I could see where this may be beneficial to a current private pilot. If one was just starting out, medical would be required throughout the private solo and checkride for ASEL. Then add on a glider rating....little drawn out and pricey if just looking for the glider rating only. I'll stick with plain ol' LSA

You can do PP glider without ASEL. Most do the add on, but there are some glider only guys out there.

Hambone · Joined: 07 Jan 2011 Posts: 67 Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE

So, with a glider-only license, one can legally fly a motorglider?

If that's the case, it seems that may be a better route than sport pilot for some, as it eliminates some of the sport pilot restrictions to allow VFR on top, >10,000', >120 kts, night VFR, >1320 lbs GW.

And for a pilot with a revoked medical, it seems like it's the only way!

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

At .62lb/sf, a 1320 lb LSA equivalent would need about a 46 ft wing span.

That's not going to fit in a typical hanger. One cringes at the thought of a tie down for such a plane.

I believe trailer storage is common for gliders/sailplanes.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

Hambone wrote: apart from the higher purchase cost, what are the disadvantages?

The main one is that all maintenance must be done by an A&P, and annual inspections by an IA. This is a certified aircraft, so the repairman's certificate does not apply.

Quote: Couldn't many LSA aircraft fit the motorglider category by complying with the .62lb/ft2 criteria with a larger wing and thereby eliminate the limiting LSA weather, speed, and weight restrictions?

Not unless the aircraft is manufactured to Part 23 standards (likely considerably more rigorous than ASTM requirements), certified, and has received a Standard Category airworthiness certificate. I know of no LSA manufacturers who want to jump through those hoops.

Quote: Does this mean that one can fly an IFR-equipped motorglider in IMC/night/above 10,000'/above 120 kts on an instrument ticket without a current medical?

Yes, if it is IFR certified (few are).

Quote: If the IFR-equipped motorglider also meets SLSA criteria, can it be used for sport pilot use?

If it meets all of the LSA criteria, it becomes a sport pilot eligible certified aircraft (like certain Cubs, Champs, Luscombes, and Ercoupes) and can be flown by Sport Pilots with glider signoffs (or Private and above pilots with lapsed medicals, if they also have a glider rating). I don't believe it can be flown by ASEL private+ pilots without taking the glider written and practical. And, even if IFR equipped and certified, with all the required inspections being current for IFR, if flown by a Sport Pilot (or Private or above exercising Sport Pilot privileges), it can not be flown in IMC, or on an IFR flight plan, or VFR on top, or above 10,000 feet. Since the temptation to exceed Sport Pilot privileges is great, I can see this as a great setup for being violated by the FAA.

Hambone · Joined: 07 Jan 2011 Posts: 67 Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE

Thanks for clearing that up!

It is interesting to note that an private/instrument/commercial-rated pilot with a lapsed or revoked physical can still exercise private/instrument/commercial privileges, albeit in a certified motor glider.

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

Call me a cynic but I bet that if people did this in any numbers above single digits this would be regulated into oblivion.

Seems like anybody that would fly a sailplane in IMC is s a likely candidate for a Darwin Award.

Hambone · Joined: 07 Jan 2011 Posts: 67 Location: Abu Dhabi, UAE

There's a major difference between a day VFR sailplane and an IFR-certified touring motor glider.

Having said that, I don't think you'll find many IFR-certified motor gliders around! Perhaps this will change as 'glass cockpit' avionics technology accelerates.

rsteele · Joined: 12 Feb 2007 Posts: 261

Hambone wrote: There's a major difference between a day VFR sailplane and an IFR-certified touring motor glider.

Having said that, I don't think you'll find many IFR-certified motor gliders around! Perhaps this will change as 'glass cockpit' avionics technology accelerates.

I'll take your word on the differences. I suppose there would have to be. I went up for about a 20 min ride in a 2 place Schweitzer a long time ago. I loved it and would love to do it again. I just need to lose about 75lb to fit into one now!