Sport Pilot Talk

jnmeade · Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

This question is especially for those who have flown both. I am 6' 250 lbs and not getting any more limber. I've been looking at the Flight Design and Jabiru 230, among others. (Only a high wing plane will meet some of my needs, so that limits my choices.) I want speed, comfort, some baggage area, all climate operations, modern avionics, etc. No rag wings or tube & fabric. Cabin width is a major issue.
Which would you prefer for long-distance trips, the Jabiru 230 or one of the FD models, and if the latter, which one and why? I'm especially interested in your experience in longer flights.
Thanks

zaitcev · Joined: 05 Jan 2010 Posts: 256 Location: Albuquerque, NM

I have nothing against CT, it's a market leader for a good reason. But I'm curious, why did you reject Remos GX, Fk9, Cessna 162? They are essentially the same as the two you mentioned. Is there a particular reason? I know that Kolb, while a sturdy airplane, has a seat limit of 240 lbs, which may be the reason.

Edit: Never mind, I see the "among others" bit now. Reading comprehension issues. BTW, I weigh 230 lbs.

jnmeade · Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

It's always interesting to see how people respond to a post. It reminds of the old Indian who said, "what you see depends on where you stand". Others see things differently.
So, first, if possible, I'd really like to see a comparison between the Jabiru 230 and the FD CTLS/SW.
To your other question, I was at Mt. Vernon and I was at Sebring and before those I was at Oshkosh. I've gotten into virtually every LSA on the market. Some are hard to get into for me. Some are more narrow than I'd like. Some don't have the headroom that I'd like. Some have a carry-through spar that looks like it would crush one's skull in an accident. Some have a VNE that looks very low.
I like the FD because it is a proven design with a good track record, good support and a decent used market. I like Jabiru because it was certificated in Australia at 1500 lbs so I'm confident it was built to handle more than I'll put in it. Both these have good cabin width and I think better support than some others. These are a few, but not all, the reasons why, after 3 airshows and a fair amount of time on line, I've focused on these two as my prime interests. Of course, if I win the lotto, I'll also buy a Carbon Cub and a SeaMax. Don't want to leave anything out. :)
A kit is nice but I need and want an aircraft this summer (as soon as I sell my 210). So, maybe I'll build a Rans Courier in my shop when I'm not flying the factory built LSA.
Money is an object, sadly, so I'll be in the used market no matter what I buy, with $90k being about my limit.
I'm a farmer and like to look over my ground and take pictures so a low-wing is no good, and my wife has mobility issues and finds low wing hard to get in and out of. Likewise, for me, a tail wheel is fine but hard for the wife to get in and out.

KSCessnaDriver · Joined: 25 Jan 2009 Posts: 159 Location: KOJC

I'll tell you what I think of both of them (kind of), being 6'1", 235. I love flying a CTSW. Its fun to fly, has great visibility and just generally is a good airplane. The only thing I didn't like about it was, at times it is hard to get into. Perhaps its an acquired skill that I never figured out, but it was hard to get into. I've flown a Jabiru J170 (the baby cousin of the J230), and it too was roomy and had good visibility. Might have been easier to get into, but the control setup was different. Not that it was bad or hard to get used to, but its just different. The Jabiru might have been slightly easier to land, but it was nothing significant over the CTSW.

They're both fine airplanes, and I don't think you could go wrong with either.

Jack Tyler · Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 2:47 pm Post subject:

JN:

Re: the 230, I would suggest you visit www.recreationalflying.net/forum.php and have a chat with the blokes there. This is primarily an (excellent, IMO) Australian forum and there are many with lots of Jabiru experience there, both renting and owning. (There is also a lot of national pride in the Jab among many there, so you'll have to factor that in). Exposure to the Jab in the USA is far more limited, so your main info resources will be found in Oz. Based on discussions with multiple pilots at one of the local aerodromes here (Caboolture in Queensland), I don't believe it's correct that the 230 was certified at 1500#. I believe it's limited to the standard 600 Kg., altho' perhaps you're referring to the Jab 4-seater which is a similar design...but the boys at Recreational Flying can help you understand both the class system in use here (which everyone is HOPING will soon be changed to higher weight limits on these microlights) and its current limits.

The 'what you see is where you stand' point is, for me, well taken WRT your issues: access, outside viz from inside and sense of spaciousness in both the models you mention. Personally, my reaction to both is that they feel relatively more cramped and are certainly more awkward to enter than some of the low wings I've inspected. I find both models to have relatively limited viz, at least from a flying perspective - altho' yes, the view straight down is better than in some low wings. Some of the low wing designs place the cockpit fairly far forward relative to the leading edge of the wing, and downward viz is therefore far better than what you may be accustomed to with a conventional (e.g. Piper) low wing. I'd suggest you invite your wife to do a little window shopping with you - of both some of the low and high wings - and see how you both feel about the relative cockpit merits of each.

Good luck to you. Choosing a single plane that 'does it all' - when it comes in such a small package - is definitely a challenge.

rfane · Joined: 26 Apr 2006 Posts: 214 Location: Sunnyvale, CA

jnmeade wrote: I like Jabiru because it was certificated in Australia at 1500 lbs so I'm confident it was built to handle more than I'll put in it.

The CTLS's used in last year's round the world flight, had special permission from the EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency) to fly with 1654 lb maximum takeoff weight. Other than extra fuel tanks and comm equipment, these were stock aircraft.

Bottom line is you need to go out and fly some LSA's and form your own opinion. Everyone has their personal opinions. I know of one ex 210 owner, who thought the 2005 CT he was renting was unstable, so he bought a Tecnam Bravo. I was renting that same plane, and no issues with it.

I've been flying CTSW's for 5 years now. My opinions are likely to be considered biased by some of those here, so feel free to contact me by PM if you want specific info. I will say that I am 6'2" and currently weigh 260 lb. One of my partners is 6'5". We have no trouble getting in or out. My wife is only 5', so I carry a folding plastic step to aid her getting in and out.

jnmeade · Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

I flew a Jabiru 250 today for about 30 minutes. It will fly at rated speed. Stalls were predictable and straight-forward. Handled a slow-flight rudder maneuver nicely with no surprises. Cabin was nice and quiet. A little more snug than the P2008. Seat did not adjust.

I felt the controls were a little heavy in the turns. Got it over to about 45° in 360° turns and it flew predictably. I thought both rudder and aileron forces were a little heavier than I'd expected. I'd say heavier than a C150. The throttle and side-stick (I flew from the right) were no problem at all to adapt to.

All in all, a nice airplane and one I would be happy to own. I think I'd pick the P2008 over it, but the Jabiru 250 is still a fine airplane. I'd like to fly the 230 to see if it is much different.

roger lee · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:22 am Post subject: Pick one

I have flown the Tecnam, Jabiru and own a CT. I have friends that own all three. I work on them for a living. I would pick a Tecnam over a Jabiru any day of the week. There is no comparison in quality.

jnmeade · Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

roger lee wrote: I have flown the Tecnam, Jabiru and own a CT. I have friends that own all three. I work on them for a living. I would pick a Tecnam over a Jabiru any day of the week. There is no comparison in quality.

OK, well you said it more emphatically than I did, but I won't quarrel with you. :)
I have yet to fly the CT, but hope to in a couple of weeks or so. What do you suspect I will find in comparison? And, a question I'm getting varying answers to, will the CTLS be more stable than a CTSW?

roger lee · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:01 am Post subject: Which plane is right for me

The question of "Which plane is right for me" is a little different for each person and only you can answer that.
Before I purchased my CTSW in 06 I went out and sat in and flew in as many as I could. My criteria was, plenty of cabin room (I'm not little 6'1" and 250), I hate to be shoulder to shoulder with someone while flying. I want to carry two people at 250 lbs and it's no big deal in a CT. The CT has the widest cabin at 49.5". I wanted leg room so my knees weren't up in the dash and adjustable seats. I wanted to be able to fly from either side like the CT. I wanted plenty of fuel for cross countries, it carries 34 gals. I wanted good cruise speed, it cruises at 130mph at 5100 rpm and burns less than 5 gph. It has a 14:1 glide ratio. I wanted plenty of baggage space. There is room in the floor in front of each person, under the seats and can hold up to 55 lbs. on each side behind the people with lots of room for big things. You never have to worry about CG because if you put the weight where it is supposed to go you can't get the CT out of CG. If I had to, the CT will carry up to 1500 lbs. and not blink an eye. I can take off at gross weight at a 10K density altitude (I have done it.) All of us that have CT's fly them all over the country for trips. It's a great cross country machine. There have been a few guys who have flown them around the world including over the oceans and up to 1640 lbs. and several that fly to the Bahama's. What I mean to imply is it is a sturdy well built aircraft. I wanted a company that was most likely going to be around if the economy got bad. There are around 325 CT's in the states and 1700 world wide. FD is a strong company and is doing very well despite the economy.
To answer another of your questions is comparing the SW to the LS.
I prefer the SW because I like the way the sets me up in the seat a little better. I like the tall back seats. The LS has a little storage shelf behind each person. The LS is about 40 lbs heavier than the SW. The LS is a little longer so maybe a tad more rudder stable, but there is nothing wrong with the SW rudder. The SW is the sports car with its handling and many prefer it, then there are those that like a little heavier feel. I like a nice light feel which is great on cross countries. Many of the CT's have auto pilot and glass panels. I came out of helicopters so a nice light feel was perfect and no big deal to fly. Light is good, heavy is fatiguing. If you come from a 172 or 182 type aircraft then you will need a couple of hours to get used to flying a sports car over the station wagon. It makes no matter because like any airplane or any thing in life it's whatever you get used to, not what it's like the first time.

Many of the other SLSA's were too tight a cabin for me and a passenger, my knees were usually in the dash, not enough leg room, not enough fuel, too little baggage area, too hard to get into, too little useful load, CG sensitivity, too slow. These are the main reasons most CT people bought their CT.
Those were my reasons for buying a CT. I have 700+ hrs in 4 years in my CT and have flown many other SLSA's and with different props. I work on LSA's for a living and get a good accounting on quality of each and flight characteristics. I don't work on a couple LSA's a year. I tallied my plane inspections two weeks ago and that total is 86 inspections on different aircraft in 2.5 years. I work on aircraft from 6 different states and get a chance to fly many. Matter of fact I have a Gobosh next week.

There are other good LSA's out there, but these were my personal reasons for buying a CT and it was right for me.
The answer is still, only you can make your finial decision and so long as your happy, it really doesn't matter what any one else thinks. No matter what plane you get flying is fun. Maybe some have a few different aircraft characteristics, but for many they don't care.

I flew my CT out from Desoto, IA Dec, 2006, colder than a bugger, couldn't get the engine temp up to operating levels until I got airborne headed back to Tucson. OH yes one last thing. The cabin heater works great. I fly down to 10F with only short sleeves and jeans. Nice and warm.
Looks like you got more than .02 cents worth here and it went up to a nickel.

jnmeade · Joined: 30 Nov 2010 Posts: 144 Location: Iowa

Roger,
Thanks for the very nice review. It sounds like if I like the SW I won't be sorry to buy one. I'm looking forward to flying one soon.

Jim

roger lee · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:23 am Post subject: LSA's

If you want to read more about CT's in general, more LSA avionics or Rotax tech help hop on over to the www.ctflier.com forum. It is a very active forum and has people with different LSA's with lots of experience.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

roger lee wrote: The cabin heater works great. I fly down to 10F with only short sleeves and jeans. Nice and warm.

Roger, you lucky devil! That's my biggest complaint about the SportStar this time of year -- the cabin heater wouldn't melt an ice cube. :cry:

roger lee · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: Cabin heater

Hi Paul,

The big thing with several of the LSA's for good cabin heat is making sure all the air entry holes are taped up. I put some extra soft 3/8" wide foam around the door in addition to the regular door seal. Our (LSA) doors aren't air tight. The CT has a few extra holes up above the head for different things so I use 3" wide clear tape to cover them. When the cabin is sealed that heater will drive you out of there. I have yet to ever wear a jacket in my plane.

JabiruJohn · Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1

It's been a while since the question was asked, but I had to add my 10 cents worth. I have about 180 hours in the Jabiru J230, 40 hours in the Remos G3 and GX, about 6 hours in the Flight Design CTLS, and maybe 2 hour in the Tecnam P2004 Bravo. Most "missions" are cross country. I am 5"10" and about 230.

Obviously, I am partial to the Jabiru J230, but maybe not all of the reasons are obvious. THe most obvious of course is the baggage room, and the "margin" on gross weight. On a recent trip to visit our daughter at KASX - some 200nm from our base at KSUE, my wife and I loaded our luggage for a 2 night stay, a 27" men's frame road bike (we did take the wheels off), a tent, backpack, and sleeping bag. No other SLSA can come close to this. I doubt you could get the bike into the Centurion.

The cabin heat in all the planes is adequate, but ventilation is not. You will sweat to death in a Remos - its ventilation is totally inadequate in warm weather. The Tecnam is better, but still not enough. But the Jabiru has great ventilation, even on the ground. Another factor for me is the avionics. I really like the GRT Horizon glass panels usually found on the Jabirus. The internal GPS is simply wonderful, and GRT offers free upgrades, so a current database of airports is always on hand. They even added lakes, rivers, roads, and towns to the moving map display, so the performance of the glass panel is better than when I purchased it. The Dynon panels usually found on the others is a distant second in my book.

Seating is more comfortable in the Tecnam than the others, and the controls are signifcantly lighter than the Jabiru, which are rather stiff. I think the Jabiru would be much more fatiguing on cross countries, except for the addition of the autopilot. I thought this was silly on an S-LSA, but after a trip to Florida, I wouldn't fly without it. Without a doubt the Tecnam was my second choice, but at the time there was no dealer nearby, and the price was better on the Jabiru.

Good Luck!