Sport Pilot Talk

bill_dom · Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 14 Location: Miami

I have met all the pre-requisites for the check ride, all required minimum hours and passed knowledge test. I'm pretty proficient in almost all maneuvers. There's only one thing where I'm kind of weak, landing with 30 degree flaps for a short field simulation. I can do the short field simulation well with 15 degrees flaps. But with 30 degrees, I get it right only half of the time, the other half I have to go around or end up with some bouncy landing. Mind you, I started practicing landings with 30 flaps on my last flying session last Saturday so I have not practiced that much.

My question is, during the check ride, does the DPE ask for specific flap setting for short field landing or is that a decision for the student to make when requested to do the short field landing?

I'm confident that I can improve it with more practice, but I would prefer to concentrate on check ride practices if I don't have to use 30 degree flap landings during my check ride. My check ride is going to be in the Flight Design CTLS.

bryancobb · Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:04 pm Post subject: No Guarantee

Bill,
Have you got the dual "checkride prep" hours completed?

Most instructors focus intensely on short/soft field procedures during the checkride prep hours JUST BEFORE your flight test?

I would say that there is an 80% chance that you can get by without the full flaps landing... BUTTTTT

just as sure as you don't get comfortable with it, your examiner will be very familiar with the plane you are testing in, and ask you "why aren't you using full flaps."

I'd probably say "I was going to demonstrate my "SHORT FIELD" technique, "NOT MY SHORTEST FIELD" technique." LOL

When I took my Private Checkride in 1986, Mr. Leslie said "OK, show me a short field takeoff." I said "Would you like for me to do it with flaps, or without." He said "Whichever you are more comfortable with is fine with me."

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

Before we discuss specific flap settings, it is important to understand the purpose of the short field landing exercise. The idea is not only that the runway is short, but also that you have to clear obstacles at the runway threshold. (This is a realistic scenario for an off-airport emergency landing, where you have to clear trees to make an open field). Thus, your approach needs to be steeper than usual. Otherwise, after clearing obstacles at a normal 3 degree approach slope, you're going to land far beyond the obstacle, and touch down with as much runway behind as ahead of you.

And that's where flaps come in. They steepen your approach, while allowing you not to pick up excess airspeed. Without flaps, pointing the nose down will result in a steep approach. However, when you flare, you'll be going so fast that you will float just above the runway, for its entire length. And, you should remember, you never want to force a plane down onto the runway. If you don't let it land when it's ready, you'll end up breaking it.

So, how much flap to use in a short field, obstacle approach? All that you have available. (In your CT, that would be 30 degrees. In my SportStar, it's 50.)

Landing with that much flap just doesn't feel right, because the angle is much steeper than you're used to. That's the whole point - it's supposed to! The only way this is going to work is if you are very rigorous in airspeed control. And the airspeed to shoot for is generally about 10% slower than that you'd use for a normal landing.

I don't know the exact numbers for your Flight Design, so I'll just give you mine. A normal approach speed, in my case, is 60 knots indicated. So, with full flaps in an obstacle situation, I have my students approach at 55 KIAS. As long as they hold airspeed very exactly, the plane clears the obstacle at a steep angle, flares just past the runway threshold, settles nicely, and (with either aerodynamic braking or wheel brakes) gets stopped in minimum space.

Your goal should be to concentrate on airspeed control. Nail whatever the short-field approach airspeed is in your plane, with full flaps. Practice this at altitude, not on the landing approach. Memorize the pitch attitude that gives you the desired airspeed with full flaps and power at idle. Once you can nail that at altitude, you're ready to try it on approach to a runway. Keep the nose exactly where your practice sessions told you it should be, and you'll find the short field landing will take care of itself.

Your Designated Pilot Examiner may or not even have you execute a short field landing. The Practical Test Standard lists many tasks, and a checkride only samples them. But, if such a maneuver is called for, you should expect to execute it with full flaps, and a stabilized approach speed. With a little practice (with a qualified instructor onboard, who knows the magic numbers for your particular plane), you should be able to master this in one or two practice flights.

Best of luck on your checkride, Bill, and congratulations on coming this far along.

3Dreaming · Joined: 10 Jan 2010 Posts: 301 Location: noble, IL USA

Bill, you should have done these before you did your cross country flights. I do a few right before I solo a student as well. For the CTLS you have 35 degree flaps for full flaps. With full flaps in the CT you do not have as much cushion and float as you do with 15 degree flaps. Because of this the flare takes much more precision. The book says 52 kts, but I find 55 kts works much better. If you have very much crosswind factor I would only use 15 degrees, because of the flapperons for safety reasons. Tom

comperini · Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 152 Location: California

drseti wrote:
Your Designated Pilot Examiner may or not even have you execute a short field landing. The Practical Test Standard lists many tasks, and a checkride only samples them.

Sorry to disagree, but the short-field landing is one of the required tasks in the PTS. Its not up to the examiner to decide whether or not it has to be done. There are only a few of the maneuvers (ground reference), that the examiner can "choose". Cross wind landings don't have to be demonstrated, if no cross-wind condition exists (in which case, you talk about it on the ground), but short/soft field takeoffs and landings, as well as forward slip to a landing (if the aircraft is capable of slips) are part of the required tasks.

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

comperini wrote: Sorry to disagree, but the short-field landing is one of the required tasks in the PTS.

Thanks for the correction, Bob. Always good to have a DPE chime in to keep us straight. :oops:

Bill, there you have it. Better practice those stabilized approaches with full flaps!

ka7eej · Joined: 28 Jan 2007 Posts: 177 Location: Taylor, Az

bill_dom

While there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum, I would encourage you to add the official FAA rules and regulations to your search. If you are asking questions about the "check ride" look no farther than the published PTS (practical test standards). In reference to Short field landings this is what it says. :::

F. TASK: SHORT-FIELD (CONFINED AREA—ASES) APPROACH AND LANDING (ASEL and ASES)
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, FAA-H-8083-23; AFM/POH.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to a short-field (Confined Area—ASES) approach and landing.
2. Adequately surveys the intended landing area. (ASES)
3. Considers the wind conditions, landing surface, obstructions, and selects the most suitable touchdown point.
4. Establishes the recommended approach and landing configuration and airspeed/attitude; adjusts pitch attitude and power as required.
5. Maintains a stabilized approach and the recommended approach airspeed/attitude, or in its absence not more than 1.3 Vso, +10/-5 knots.
6. Selects the proper landing path, contacts the water at the minimum safe airspeed with the proper pitch attitude for the surface conditions. (ASES)
7. Touches down smoothly at minimum control airspeed. (ASEL)
8. Touches down at or within 200 feet beyond a specified point.
9. Maintains crosswind correction and directional control throughout the approach and landing sequence.
10. Applies brakes if equipped (ASEL), or elevator control (ASES) as necessary, to stop in the shortest distance consistent with safety.

This is the only thing that a DPE should be testing you on.. You need to touch down within 200 ft of a specified point. Check your POH for recommendations on landing configurations and approach speed as in number 4. Says nothing about flaps. Use whatever flaps you need to to achieve the desired results. I have only 15 and 48 on my Allegro. I practice 48 from time to time, but used 15 on my "check ride" and had no problem landing with 200 ft of a specified point.

These guys are great and have helped me out a bunch, however, some opinions are stated as fact and are not... Here's an opinion from me (and lots of others) try adding a little power ( ~2600 on a Rotex 912) as you cross the threshold to help maintain direction control and reduce as needed inches from touching down..

Good luck and please read and research!!!

Brian (newly passed Sport Pilot)

bryancobb · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 6:04 am Post subject: Again

Bill,

As "KA7" points out, the PTS says "4. ...Establishes the recommended landing configuration."

Well the short field landing configuration FOR THE PLANE YOU ARE FLYING can ony be found in the Pilots Operating Handbook that's in the plane.

YOU should be very familiar with it. The DPE may not be as familiar as you, with it. That's why I said 80% chance of getting by with not using full flaps.

Now Paul IS very correct in his presentation of the why and how of a short field landing. He is also VERY correct that the purpose of flaps is to INCREASE DESCENT ANGLE WITHOUT INCREASING AIRSPEED, so you can clear your obstacle in a steeper descent and leave more earth to use to get stopped once you touch.

If you are ready for your checkride except for the max flaps short field stuff... It's gonna take a few more $$$ and a couple more hours to get there. If you want to roll the dice on my 80% bet, go ahead. The worst case would be a flunk and come back in 2 days and do just the full flap and then you pass. My guess is, if you do good on everything else, the DPE is not gonna flunk you based on 10 degrees less laps than the book calls out.

bill_dom · Joined: 11 Jan 2011 Posts: 14 Location: Miami

Thanks for all the answers. Yesterday night, I re-read the PTS and the CTLS Training Sylabus, The Training Sylabus does specify 30 or 35 degrees flaps for short field landing. Based on this and what was posted here, I'll have to get my 30 degree flaps short field proficiency before the check ride, and not after as I was considering.

The approach airspeed I was using was 54 KIAS and it worked well when I was able to keep it for the longest. I'll follows drseti advice to practice this at an altitude, that's a good idea. It should not take me long, I was able to do 3 or 4 acceptable ones out of 7 in my first session doing this in moderately windy conditions, so I shouldn't be far from it.

Another thing I will do is to extend downwind a bit more to have a longer final. I was doing short approaches with short finals last Saturday and I think this contributed to make it a bit more difficult. With a longer final, I'll have more control of the exact point and altitude where I need to start my steep descent.

Thanks to all.

bryancobb · Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 9:51 am Post subject: Keep in mind

bill_dom wrote:
Another thing I will do is to extend downwind a bit more to have a longer final.... With a longer final, I'll have more control of the exact point and altitude where I need to start my steep descent.
Thanks to all.

Keep in mind Bill, shortly after rolling out level on final approach, you should then get stable on the descent angle you intend to keep 'till you flare. Your instructor probably does not want you on a long extended final at 20 degrees of flaps and 60 kts and then a short steep final with 35 degrees of flaps and 50 knots. He probably wants you to stabilize and trim your final approach in ONE configuration and keep it until you land.

As drseti said, the amount of flaps+nose attitude is what controls the path, speed, and angle of your descent.

In my humble opinion, extending your downwind will require a higher altitude when you roll wings level on final.

Be sure and show this to your instructor to make sure he agrees. Don't just take my word. I'm going to try and attach a sketch.

JUST REALIZED MY FIRST "TO" SHOULD HAVE BEEN "TOO." Oh well...

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

Short field landings are one of the easiest IF you understand the underlying concept - that being that it is a minimum energy, maximum drag (that's where full flaps come in), full stall, precision landing. Minimum energy means coming in with a reduced margin of airspeed and altitude.

Here is where I would differ from some of the posters on this list. The PTS does not require a steeper approach path nor is that technique the one used in most real world short field situations such as landing on a gravel bar in AK. The way they do it up there, the way we teach it, and the way our examiners want to see it, is with a much shallower than normal approach. We are teach these below the PAPI and are dragging the plane in with power on the back side of the power curve. Power is pulled over the threshold (aim spot) and the plane is stalled over the touch down spot (target spot). Bare in mind that the aim spot is not the target spot since you still have way too much energy over the aim spot to stall and this is a full stall landing.

(Check out the third video on this page to see this in action:
http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/flying-wild-alaska-episode-3-videos/ )

What makes the short field landing easy to pass on a checkride is that if it looks like you are going to stall before the target spot, you just add a little power to lengthen the float. If it looks like you are going to stall after the target spot, you just execute a go around. Since your approach and flare are so slow, you have plenty of time too judge where your stall is going to be.

Helen

bryancobb · Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:26 pm Post subject: My Humble Contribution

Hi Helen,

In 1986 when I was getting polished (I use the term loosely.) for my Private checkride at Peter O'Knight in Tampa, my instructor was teaching the same Alaska technique you speak of. We made low shallow approaches, hanging on the prop from the north over the boats/cranes in Ebor City, to a point 50 feet above the imaginary FAA tree, at the end of the runway.

After clearing the FAA tree, we would drop the nose sharply and slip to the flare altitude. Then straighten out, touchdown, dump the flaps, and slam on the brakes to just before the skid. My examiner, Mr. Leslie, wrote "good job with the short field technique" in my log book. I'm sure my CFI just taught the maneuver like he KNEW the examiner wanted it.

We were in a Tomohawk and probably were stopped within the first 900 ft.

My big concern in performing short field landings with a shallow hang-on-the-prop approach, is engine failure options. The hypothetical 5 degree approach in the left figure above, affords the pilot many more options in the event of engine failure, while getting to the same touchdown point, at the same airspeed and attitude.

comperini · Joined: 24 Feb 2008 Posts: 152 Location: California

bryancobb wrote: My big concern in performing short field landings with a shallow hang-on-the-prop approach, is engine failure options. The hypothetical 5 degree approach in the left figure above, affords the pilot many more options in the event of engine failure.

Good points, and I think I agree. Especially, when you consider that one of the real-life reasons you might be making a short field landing, is because you already lost your engine, and your only landing spot is a "short field". It was also mentioned before about the difficulties of "changing things" on a short final, as opposed to having the stable approach all the way in.

I smell a good discussion brewing here :)

drseti · Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 1387 Location: Lock Haven PA

Back in my grad school days, the UC Berkeley Flying Club had regular spot landing contests. What differentiated them from most is that all contestants flew the same Cessna 150. That removed aircraft performance from the equation, and the contest became a test of pilot skills. My best friend, the late Malcolm Raff (one helluva CFI, CFII, CFIH) and I developed a technique similar to Helen's -- except that I flew the throttle, and Mal had the flap handle. When we got nearly over the chalk line, just inches above the runway, I would kill the power and Mal would dump the 50 degree barndoor flaps. We'd slam down, touching the line with the mains and sending chalk dust flying. Won the competition every time!

This technique is great for precision spot landings, but obviously I don't favor it for obstacle approaches...

Helen · Joined: 23 Apr 2007 Posts: 119 Location: Maryland

Quote: My big concern in performing short field landings with a shallow hang-on-the-prop approach, is engine failure options. The hypothetical 5 degree approach in the left figure above, affords the pilot many more options in the event of engine failure, while getting to the same touchdown point, at the same airspeed and attitude.

Agree. There are a lot of times and conditions under which this approach technique is not appropriate and it does add that additional level of risk associated with engine failure. That being said, it is the technique to do the shortest landing and is the one used by the professionals for such. All of this is great segway to a discussion about ORM with your students, which when you get down to it, is an even more important thing to teach than short field landings.

Helen